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 Post Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 5:08 pm 
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I get e-mail alerts from various conservative/religious groups because I find the mind-set of the far right interesting at times. It also helps me keep up with the various topics my brother likes to talk to me about so I can research alternative viewpoints before he suprises me with his "facts". In one of these e-mail alerts I discovered this story which a quick google found was in mainstream news reports as well, though with less editorializing.

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090210/SPORTS0203/902100316

I am curious what everyone thinks here.

Is this a case of a lez-nazi getting rid of players who are too straight as some reports have implied? (the lez-nazi term is mine, from a Seinfeld reference to the Soup Nazi)

Is this a case of a homophobe trying to make trouble for a lesbian after being kicked off the team for good reason?

Is this an example of how a person in athority can sometimes abuse their power based on their own ideology?

Will we ever get the full story?


edit- I specifically used a non-extreme right news source to post about the story to prevent people from assuming the story has no merit based on the source.

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 Post Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 5:49 pm 
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It is difficult to know what to make of this story. I mean, if the allegations are true it goes to show that gay people can be as inappropriate as straight people, which is not remotely surprising. However a few things don't quite ring true, particularly the whole makeup thing. I've never met a lesbian that would be "upset because they wore make-up or tight clothing or otherwise acted in a feminine way." That is instead what anti-feminist/lesbian people imagine lesbians to be like. While there are certainly lesbians that do act butch, there are plenty that don't and pairings between the two (butch and femme) occur. Where people have opposed the whole Butch and femme thing it is in so far that the Butch takes the stereotyped "dominant" role of the male, but I don't see how that translates to railing on someone for being feminine. The only thing I can think of is just a simple case of two people not getting on. I have female, heterosexual, friends, one of which hates the other because she is so "girly". The hater is feminine herself, but there is feminine and there is girly I guess. Who can fathom the female mind?

To answer your questions...
Quote:
Is this a case of a lez-nazi getting rid of players who are too straight as some reports have implied?
Possibly, possibly not, but what does it prove?
Quote:
Is this an example of how a person in athority can sometimes abuse their power based on their own ideology?
More likely if true someone abusing their power because they are a jerk. I think that is the important thing here, if it has happened it is because the person is an asshole, not because she is a lesbian.
Quote:
Is this a case of a homophobe trying to make trouble for a lesbian after being kicked off the team for good reason?
Again, this could also be true, and wouldn't be surprising. When people fail they always try and blame everyone but themselves. This is why when guys fail to score they accuse the intended of being "frigid" or a lesbian - it couldn't possibly be their fault!

Quote:
Will we ever get the full story?
Probably not. The purpose of the story (putting out the message that gay = bad, has already been served. If the story is true then you will hear of it again, because it can reinforce the message. But if it is fault, well the media, especially the POV pushing media, doesn't really do corrections.

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 Post Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 9:47 pm 
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angrysunbird wrote:
More likely if true someone abusing their power because they are a jerk. I think that is the important thing here, if it has happened it is because the person is an asshole, not because she is a lesbian.


True. I hope that the phrasing of my question did not imply otherwise. I meant to treat the "possible offender" as someone who abuses power based on their own convictions rather than on reality. It can happen to anyone in power who has a strong belief in an ideology of any kind.


angrysunbird wrote:
Probably not. The purpose of the story (putting out the message that gay = bad, has already been served. If the story is true then you will hear of it again, because it can reinforce the message. But if it is fault, well the media, especially the POV pushing media, doesn't really do corrections.


I think that the whole story will not be told because all we will really get is the tidbits that the various groups feel represents their view offered, rather than an accurate portrayal of events. The student alleges that several other girls left the team due to similar problems and that the coach left another school for similar issues.. I am interested to see if any further complaints show up.

I agree that the purpose of the extreme right in relating the story is that gay=bad. I do not think that the other outlets that have mentioned it are pushing that agenda though. It seemed to be mostly reported in sports news (except for the extreme right blogosphere) as a sports scandal. Kinda like the sports news reporting on the bong incident with Phelps.

What I find most interesting is that if there was a lawsuit alleging that a boys football coach kicked a feminine guy off the team for not being manly enough, IMO the media would blitz the story. It seems that the only people screaming about this story are the extreme right. To be fair, it's possible that the story is too "new" to have been reported on much, or that the allegations are so baseless that no one is taking it seriously at all.

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 Post Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 10:01 pm 
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Admittedly, reprimanding a man for not being manly enough is almost exactly the opposite of reprimanding a woman for being too womanly. It's not a fair comparison.

Both, however, would be inappropriate, as long as the person's performance on the court/field/track/pool/etc. was up to the standards required of the team.

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 Post Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 10:09 pm 
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Grillick wrote:
Admittedly, reprimanding a man for not being manly enough is almost exactly the opposite of reprimanding a woman for being too womanly. It's not a fair comparison.

Both, however, would be inappropriate, as long as the person's performance on the court/field/track/pool/etc. was up to the standards required of the team.



I agree that both would be inappropriate.

It's a fair comparison considering that in both instances the person being reprimanded was punnished for being girly instead of tough and athletic as seems the case if the allegations are true. At least that is what I thought when I stated it. I could be wrong.

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 Post Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 12:36 am 
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angrysunbird wrote:
More likely if true someone abusing their power because they are a jerk. I think that is the important thing here, if it has happened it is because the person is an asshole, not because she is a lesbian.

Unfortunately, ideology may not be so easily discounted. CMU seems rather solidly embedded in the left-wing academia mindset. It's entirely possible that this coach holds to that odd brand of academic feminism that tends to fester in such environments (and pisses off so many feminists in the real world who actually want to continue to improve things for women, rather than have the government force conforming mediocrity on everyone.) If that's the case, then there's every possibility that this coach was attempting to run her team based on some ideology that dictated appropriate behaviour, and not the requirements of competitive sports.

Of course, what's we should really all be doing is not contributing to the media feeding frenzy at all - but let the legal system work things out. After all, there's either a case to make, or there isn't.

chaosman wrote:
What I find most interesting is that if there was a lawsuit alleging that a boys football coach kicked a feminine guy off the team for not being manly enough, IMO the media would blitz the story. It seems that the only people screaming about this story are the extreme right. To be fair, it's possible that the story is too "new" to have been reported on much, or that the allegations are so baseless that no one is taking it seriously at all.

I don't know. I suspect only the far right would have been concerned for that story either, except for some elements of the far left who would have tried to use such a story as ammunition to ban football entirely. But maybe I'm just cynical because I don't really like football to begin with and overestimate others' dislike.

Now, if the story had been about the team allegedly raping a stripper, I guarantee the media blitz would have occurred. Not only that, but the university would probably have looked to expel the students, shut down the team and hold all sorts of political rallies in support of the victim based solely on an accusation. Sort of like this.

In any case, I guess what I'm saying is that if the allegations are true, it probably has little to do with her being either too girly or too straight. It's much more likely is that she didn't choose to subscribe to the coach's political ideologies.

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 Post Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 12:47 am 
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Grillick wrote:
Admittedly, reprimanding a man for not being manly enough is almost exactly the opposite of reprimanding a woman for being too womanly. It's not a fair comparison.
It depends on your model of gender.

In some models, all men should be manly and all women should be womanly. In that case, you're totally right.

There's an alternate model in which there is one right way for everyone to behave, and that way is in fact "manly." With "womanly" being defined as roughly opposite to "manly." In that case, a man who is not manly enough is to be despised. A woman who is too womanly is also not manly enough, and also to be despised.

Yes, it sounds really dumb, but you can imagine a person who thinks that way.
_______

chaosman wrote:
I am curious what everyone thinks here.
I think:

The answer to the title question is "no."

Quote:
Is this a case of a lez-nazi getting rid of players who are too straight as some reports have implied? (the lez-nazi term is mine, from a Seinfeld reference to the Soup Nazi)
The answer to the question is "probably not."

If nothing else, trying to build an entire basketball time entirely out of lesbians would be extremely difficult, because only a tiny fraction of women are lesbians. Therefore, you would wind up rejecting a lot of the best available basketball players: all the women who would join your team but are not lesbians. Since your team would have to replace those players with other, less capable players who were lesbians, its average quality would go down. And your team would get their butts handed to them when going up against other basketball teams that were not so discriminating.

If this allegation were true, then the basketball coach in question must not only be unjust, but also very incompetent, so incompetent that it defies belief that they managed to make it to the college coaching level.

Also, given that the Soup Nazi's catch phrase was "no soup for you!" and that their Naziism took the form of refusing to hand out soup, your basing the description "lez nazi" on "Soup Nazi" makes me think of many strange things. [confused]
_______

Quote:
Is this a case of a homophobe trying to make trouble for a lesbian after being kicked off the team for good reason?
Possibly. More likely than the last question; it's more likely that this is a false sexual harassment charge than that there exists a basketball coach so stupid as to think they can successfully build a working sports team this way.
_______

Quote:
Is this an example of how a person in athority can sometimes abuse their power based on their own ideology?
Probably not.

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 Post Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 12:54 am 
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I was thinking "No Basketball for you!" when I thought up that not so clever name.

I actually thought the ideology possibility was the most likely myself. Not neccesarily lesbian ideology (can't imagine that there is a lesbian ideology). I was thinking more of a ...You can't be a girly girl and be good at/dedicated to sports, you have to be a jock/butch type. That is an ideology (for lack of a better term) that I think many coaches of both sexes might be inclined to believe. A boy crazy girly girl who dresses sexy who also happens to kick ass on the field/court goes against the stereotypical woman athlete. Alot of people believe in stereotypes.

I also think that the lesbianism of the story is being used, in the suit but not neccesarily by the reporters, by the ex-player to explain the treatment (allegations of criticism over wearing tight clothes/having a boyfriend/ being too girly) not to indicate that the coach wanted an all lesbian team but that the coach wanted a team of jock types, not girly girls.


Last edited by chaosman on Sun Feb 15, 2009 1:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 1:02 am 
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Simon_Jester wrote:
Yes, it sounds really dumb, but you can imagine a person who thinks that way.

I can imagine a person who thinks that way, but such a person would not only be dumb and irrational, but would also be completely flying in the face of generally-accepted gender norms.

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 Post Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 1:24 am 
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Once upon a time, people did think more or less that way. It was the basis of the ancient and medieval idea that women were categorically inferior to men- not just in some ways, but in all ways. The reason? Women are less manly than men, generally speaking (this is arguably a tautology). Given the premise that "manly" is superior to "not manly," the inevitable conclusion is that women are inferior to men.

It's still kind of dumb in hindsight, but large numbers of otherwise intelligent people seriously believed it.

At least, that's my understanding of the history of gender identity. Check this one with elfy or someone if you want a more reliable answer.

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 Post Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 1:26 am 
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If that characterization of gender history were correct, then women who behaved like men would have been considered on the whole superior to their fellow women, rather than being looked upon with derision.

Concepts of female insubordination had nothing to do with the idea that "manliness" was a trait desired in everyone. It was simply the case that women were considered inferior to men, regardless of how either acted.

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 Post Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 5:35 am 
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They probably wouldn't have appreciated women who strove to be in charge but on occasions when women did find themselves in leadership positions through inheritance, they did command respect by acting more manly. See Queen Elizabeth I's battle speech "I may have the feeble body of a woman but I have the heart and stomach of a man".

As for that basketball coach, who knows? It's hard to believe that college sports coach could survive for so long with such blatant invasion of her players' personal lives, but stranger things have happened. Even if she did harbour some loopy anti-straight ideology, if she wasn't also an arsehole she would have kept it to herself. She simply doesn't have the standing to dismiss players for personal reasons completely unrelated to their athletic performance (short of drug abuse).

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 Post Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:41 am 
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Grillick wrote:
If that characterization of gender history were correct, then women who behaved like men would have been considered on the whole superior to their fellow women, rather than being looked upon with derision.


Well, The Spartans seemed to think similarly. "Strong" women (ie, women who took the masculine path of power) were quite well-received, if I remember my history lessons well. There are parallels in other cultures as well.

As for the questions given, I agree with asb for all of them. It is my belief and understanding that the neither the ideology of a person, their gender, sexual orientation, age, nationality, race or association, has any bearing whatsoever on a person's capacity for kindness and tolerance. There seems to be no variable of humankind that can accurately predict a person's predilection for tolerant actions and kindness - you will find arseholes in every group imaginable, just as you will find honestly decent, kind people. As such, when you hear about a person being a arsehole, one should question any identity that a person connects to that arsehole. Chances are excellent that it's not particularly relevant.

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 Post Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 9:21 am 
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Kea wrote:
It's hard to believe that college sports coach could survive for so long with such blatant invasion of her players' personal lives, but stranger things have happened.

Especially in Canadian minor league hockey.

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 Post Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 10:40 am 
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Grillick wrote:
If that characterization of gender history were correct, then women who behaved like men would have been considered on the whole superior to their fellow women, rather than being looked upon with derision.
Ah, but they were aping their betters!

It's a common problem in societies where some bunch of people gets second-class status for whatever reason. If they act like themselves they are despised for acting wrong. If they act like their social superiors, they are most likely to be despised for trying to be whatever their superiors are. And failing, because they are not and can never be, by definition.

It doesn't really matter what reasoning is used to justify the status divide. the consequence is generally the same, because people have a natural response to people who are by definition lower than themselves in the social pecking order.

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