I have a hard time believing that Calix didn't in some way seek redemption from Stu (or at least, his memory) as well as his own people. Why would he go through all the trouble to find them despite the fact that they blame him for their misfortune and will most likely go on hating him after they're freed? They are still a simple people, with simple views and values of the world not unlike Calix originially was, before Bun-Bun 'opened his eyes.'

It goes without saying that Torg and Calix sought redemption in different ways; ways that will have profound effects on them in the future. In Torg's case, I doubt he will accept his own redemption until he saves/protects Zoe Prime in the same way he was unable to save/protect Alt-Zoe. There is no doubt in my mind this will involve K'Z'K, unless he in some way is able to resolve the Oasis situation and keep Zoe safe that way.

Well, Calix wanted redemption, but I don't think that was his first priority. He doesn't blame himself for bad things that happened -- he blames other people. And he decided he's no longer going to think about morals and ethics to do what's best for the people he cares about.

He's like..Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica.

Only thing is I can't see him letting the rap of a prisoner go on, if Canada has not seen that sorry but your more behind than I thought. And he feels bad about it. Torg on the other hand still has his morals intact just there is just an over riding factor, he must protect Zoë, no mater the cost, if he had to kill thousands to save her he would, the needs of the one are more important to him than the needs of the many, except for her real need, which is to be with him.

being 2 parts into that three (or more y.y) part episode, i may not be the most qualified to say this, but i dunno... i'd say he's more adama-ish. if you'll recall Calix gets angry at the notion of showing mercy to someone who tortures people for a living, so i'd say that he'd definantly be opposed to that sort of thing, something Cain was most definantly not.

to paraphrase BA, he still cared about people in his own goofy way, but he killed anyone who seemed a threat. he still believed firmly in the inherant goodness of all people, he just realized there was alot of evil in peoples hearts as well. he faught so that right and wrong mattered again, not because he was a soldier, or because it would leave a glorius legacy or because of the insult faced at the hands of the enemy, or whatever reason Cain actually does the things she does. (interestingly, Cain died for the second one in the orginal series.)

Adama has done some pretty ghastly things in his time, dont forget... remember the Olympic Carrier? remember the time he spent a frack load of resorces searching for Starbuck when she crashed on that planet with the Cylon Raider? Adama was prepared to go to war with the Pegasus to get his men back.

Cain doesnt actually seem to care about her crew nearly as much as Adama does, she shot her original Executive Officer for disobeying a direct order, she tortured and brutalized a member of her crew because it turns out she was a cylon (remember what Adama did when he found out Boomer was a cylon? well thats after Boomer actually shot him. i dont know what number six did to give herself away, but i doubt it could be more jarring to a commander.).

Adama cares for his men and for his charges, but he still cares about whats right and whats wrong, he's made some hard choices that hide that fact, but we all know it to be true, Calix is no different. Cain cares a great deal less about her men, yet she goes far beyond the extreems, she tortures prisoners, she executes her men, she orders suicide runs. if her true motives are anything like those of her original counterpart, she cares more for getting her way, for military pomp, for being 'The Great Admiral Kain: Kicker of Cylon Butt' than for her crew's well being, for the human lives she sacrifices. there is more of John Jacobs to her than there is Pirate King.

Thinking back on it I would say falls some where in-between Cain and Adama, Cain has no morals left and only wants to make Toasters pay. Adama cares for his people and right and wrong. Calix cares for right and wrong but feels they don't mater in this world, and until they do he is just going to take care of himself and his own.

I think what's happening with Calix is that he wants laws and order in timeless space. Now the problem here is that to create a system of laws where none exists, you typically have to kill a lot of people and through all the killing you just hope and pray that at the end of all the carnage it will be worth it and your actions will prove to have been justified. Calix doesn't just want to give the fight for survival bigger guns, he wants to make right and wrong matter again. Is he troubled by the lives he takes? Does he count the lives he takes and weigh them against the lives that may be saved in the future by having a system of laws to protect the weak from the strong? by not having a john jacobs torturing and enslaving people for his own purposes? Maybe he does, maybe not. But his morality is still based around a certain concept of right and wrong. What's more, he feels them so strongly that he is willing to fight and kill to impose his concept of right and wrong on his world.

Torg on the other hand, is less idealistic, less bound by concepts of honor and duty. After all, in the DOL he eventually reached the conclusion that this was a world that could not be saved, that the people who lived there simply were not ready for what he could offer them and likely never would be. He was then content to isolate himself and look out for himself and the ones he cared about. His morality shifted from "right and wrong" to "us and them" and his concept of "us" was limited to a very small number of people.

Torg and Calix seem to me like opposite sides of a coin and their development as characters is very interesting depending on how much you like to meditate on such things.

It is more than that Torgs conversation with Alt-Gwynn he said something often used in Tom Clancy game sales, Freedom dose not come Free, Torg, Riff, Gwynn, and Zoë are all willing to fight for there freedom, their Alternate versions of them will not fight, Alt-Gwynn is Idealistic and Alt-Bun-Bun is just to much sun shine to fight, but the others is just scared Psyk is right they don't deserve freedom.

I agree with you to a point, totalscientist. The difference is that in his own demension, Torg knows his friends are capable of saving themselves, and will fight if threatened, which puts Calix and Torg back on the same page. Part of what Pete was getting at in TWR is that pure pasifism is impossible in a non-ideal world. The DOL was ideal, but that changed.