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Zillatain
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Post Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 11:55 pm |
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Admin of Slight Inconvenience |
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Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 11:07 pm Posts: 6070
Location: Someplace other than where I am.
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Friday has absorbed the POWER from the other days of the week! It will now fight the galaxy! And when that's done... THE UNIVERSE IS NEXT!! ---- Vote for Sluggy Freelance at Top Web Comics. Remember to vote every day.
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Dodger77
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Post Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 12:28 am |
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Member of the Fraternal Order of the Emergency Pants |
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Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2003 12:00 am Posts: 3412
AOL: Dodger724
Location: Relative Obscurity
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Methinks the language nerds are going to be apoplectic.
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jackal59
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Post Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 7:00 am |
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Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2005 8:28 am Posts: 64
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Dodger77 wrote: Methinks the language nerds are going to be apoplectic. Not really. It's true that "thou" is used to indicate familiarity, which is the opposite of how it's being used here. But I keep my expectations low when reading Sluggy.
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Chickenhead
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Post Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 8:51 am |
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Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:58 am Posts: 142
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Oooh...teensy reflection in the orb on the staff.
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Mayamoodybaby
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Post Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 9:16 am |
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Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2016 9:05 am Posts: 22
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jackal59 wrote: Dodger77 wrote: Methinks the language nerds are going to be apoplectic. Not really. It's true that "thou" is used to indicate familiarity, which is the opposite of how it's being used here. But I keep my expectations low when reading Sluggy. Largely to indicate familiarity, but if someone just saved your life, I think that they can be excused a faux pas or two. If you want to read my apoplexy in full, just look at my "Great war on typos" post for this strip.
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KevDaly
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Post Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:45 pm |
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Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2009 5:47 am Posts: 203
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Tips for writing archaic English :) : who/whom, thou/thee, ye/you (the plural of thou/thee) work the same way as we/us, I/me, he/him. annnnnnd "I do", "thou dost", "he/she/it doth". "I wot", "Thou wost", "he/she/it wot", "dost (thou) wit?"
Easy :)
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Zillatain
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Post Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 8:38 pm |
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Admin of Slight Inconvenience |
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Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 11:07 pm Posts: 6070
Location: Someplace other than where I am.
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Now Pete just needs to come in and say, "In the Sluggy Universe, this is how they spoke back then."
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Dodger77
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Post Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 9:46 pm |
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Member of the Fraternal Order of the Emergency Pants |
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Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2003 12:00 am Posts: 3412
AOL: Dodger724
Location: Relative Obscurity
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Mayamoodybaby wrote: jackal59 wrote: Dodger77 wrote: Methinks the language nerds are going to be apoplectic. Not really. It's true that "thou" is used to indicate familiarity, which is the opposite of how it's being used here. But I keep my expectations low when reading Sluggy. Largely to indicate familiarity, but if someone just saved your life, I think that they can be excused a faux pas or two. If you want to read my apoplexy in full, just look at my "Great war on typos" post for this strip. I knew it.
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Kar98
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Post Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2021 10:42 am |
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Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2003 12:00 am Posts: 42
Location: DFW, TX, USA
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Zillatain wrote: Now Pete just needs to come in and say, "In the Sluggy Universe, this is how they spoke back then." I feel like he's rollin' with the trollin' here.
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randomlanguage
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Post Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2021 11:43 pm |
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Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2017 7:32 pm Posts: 1642
Location: under a pile of papers
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Chickenhead wrote: Oooh...teensy reflection in the orb on the staff. That's creepy...
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tube_rat
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Post Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:11 pm |
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Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:26 am Posts: 456
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Dodger77 wrote: Dodger77 wrote: Methinks the language nerds are going to be apoplectic. I knew it. frankly, it reads a little strange anyhow. i was reading the typos thread and their corrections somehow make it better. i'm only a grammar nerd not a full on language nerd.
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Biscuit
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Post Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:47 am |
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Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2006 9:56 am Posts: 426
Location: Massachusetts
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Chickenhead wrote: Oooh...teensy reflection in the orb on the staff. Oooh ... that's not good. I mean, it's really good art and plotting, but not so good for the young lady. Nice catch. So this is the guy who can make animated sentient talking death traps, but can't give them a decent riddle to work with?
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spox
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Post Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:46 pm |
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Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:35 pm Posts: 5
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Pete, in case you're interested:
"Middle Ages English" was actually what we today call "Middle English". If you heard someone speak it, you would probably not understand a word. If you saw it written, you would probably not understand a word. What you're writing in the comic is certainly not supposed to be Middle English (unless you literally don't want any readers to understand what the characters are saying).
Modern English began a hundred years or so before Shakespeare's works. I think THAT is what you're trying to emulate, something like Shakespearean English. Even though it's modern English, it's very old, archaic modern English. We can understand it, mostly, but some words and usages are out of date or even unknown.
The use of the pronoun "thou" (and "thee", and "thy") is a case in point. It is just the singular of "you", what you use in addressing one person. It's also the familiar form; if you called the king "thou", you might run the risk of losing your head. With kings and other powerful, high-class folk, you have to use the "polite" plural form "you". Because, you know, they're worth more than you are.
That said, an ignorant commoner unfamiliar with the intricacies of grammar and usage might well use "thou" to address someone of higher class or rank, just because s/he doesn't know any better. For exactly this reason, JRR Tolkien imagined Merry Brandybuck speaking to Théoden, King of Rohan, using "thou", with Théoden being amused by the hobbit's overly familiar usage.
Using "thou" is tricky if you're not used to it, but once you get the hang of it, it's easy and fun. Here's a retranslation (so to speak) of the comic:
PANEL ONE [no changes] [I don't know what "Grammercy" means, but I assume it's a name or title or something like that. Unless it's some French-derived term meaning "thanks".]
PANEL TWO Wizard: Wist thou who I am? Girl: Thou art the wizard Yffi! Tales of thee wot I from my grandfather! [or, At my grandfather's knee wot I tales of thee!] Prithee forgive my gaze upon thee!
PANEL THREE Verily, all who behold my face shall a terrible fate suffer. For this very cause keep I my face in shadow, as best I can. Yet thou hast nought to fear from a sideward glance. Regardest thou me a monster?
PANEL FOUR Girl: The tales have it that thou wieldest mighty magic sometime for good, and sometime for evil. Wizard: Which believest thou? Girl: Methought thou mightest of thyself tell me.
A few grammar notes.
Panel 2:
I'm not completely sure that "witen" is an appropriate verb here. ("I wot", "thou wist") "Witen" is for knowing facts rather than e.g. being familiar with people. Maybe some German speaker could weigh in. I am sure that "know/knowest" would work fine. But using "wot/wist" here sounds good.
You wouldn't say "whom I am". Copulative verbs like "am" take the nominative (subject form) on both sides, so you wouldn't use "me" or "him" or "whom".
By the same token, you wouldn't say "tales of thou" or "looking upon thou". You would say "tales of thee" and "looking upon thee". Think of I vs. me. Thou vs. thee is the same thing.
Panel 3:
"Any whom look" is wrong; should be "any who look". Also, "Doth thou" should be "Dost thou"; "doth" is third-person singular, "he doth" and "she doth" and "it doth". (This is when "do" is used as a helping verb. If you use it as a standalone verb, like "what are you doing?", you would say "thou doest", "he/she/it doeth".)
Panel 4:
"Doth thou" --> "Dost thou", as above. Also "thou mightest" rather than "thou might". And if she's using "thou" all the time, she would probably say "thyself" rather than "yourself".
Hope that's helpful rather than pedantic. (Or helpful even if pedantic.)
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jackal59
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Post Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:24 pm |
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Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2005 8:28 am Posts: 64
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The corrections make it a little better, but it's still damn-near incomprehensible.
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tube_rat
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Post Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 11:27 pm |
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Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:26 am Posts: 456
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spox wrote: Pete, in case you're interested:
"Middle Ages English" was actually what we today call "Middle English". If you heard someone speak it, you would probably not understand a word. If you saw it written, you would probably not understand a word. What you're writing in the comic is certainly not supposed to be Middle English (unless you literally don't want any readers to understand what the characters are saying).
Modern English began a hundred years or so before Shakespeare's works. I think THAT is what you're trying to emulate, something like Shakespearean English. Even though it's modern English, it's very old, archaic modern English. We can understand it, mostly, but some words and usages are out of date or even unknown.
The use of the pronoun "thou" (and "thee", and "thy") is a case in point. It is just the singular of "you", what you use in addressing one person. It's also the familiar form; if you called the king "thou", you might run the risk of losing your head. With kings and other powerful, high-class folk, you have to use the "polite" plural form "you". Because, you know, they're worth more than you are.
That said, an ignorant commoner unfamiliar with the intricacies of grammar and usage might well use "thou" to address someone of higher class or rank, just because s/he doesn't know any better. For exactly this reason, JRR Tolkien imagined Merry Brandybuck speaking to Théoden, King of Rohan, using "thou", with Théoden being amused by the hobbit's overly familiar usage.
Using "thou" is tricky if you're not used to it, but once you get the hang of it, it's easy and fun. Here's a retranslation (so to speak) of the comic:
PANEL ONE [no changes] [I don't know what "Grammercy" means, but I assume it's a name or title or something like that. Unless it's some French-derived term meaning "thanks".]
PANEL TWO Wizard: Wist thou who I am? Girl: Thou art the wizard Yffi! Tales of thee wot I from my grandfather! [or, At my grandfather's knee wot I tales of thee!] Prithee forgive my gaze upon thee!
PANEL THREE Verily, all who behold my face shall a terrible fate suffer. For this very cause keep I my face in shadow, as best I can. Yet thou hast nought to fear from a sideward glance. Regardest thou me a monster?
PANEL FOUR Girl: The tales have it that thou wieldest mighty magic sometime for good, and sometime for evil. Wizard: Which believest thou? Girl: Methought thou mightest of thyself tell me.
A few grammar notes.
Panel 2:
I'm not completely sure that "witen" is an appropriate verb here. ("I wot", "thou wist") "Witen" is for knowing facts rather than e.g. being familiar with people. Maybe some German speaker could weigh in. I am sure that "know/knowest" would work fine. But using "wot/wist" here sounds good.
You wouldn't say "whom I am". Copulative verbs like "am" take the nominative (subject form) on both sides, so you wouldn't use "me" or "him" or "whom".
By the same token, you wouldn't say "tales of thou" or "looking upon thou". You would say "tales of thee" and "looking upon thee". Think of I vs. me. Thou vs. thee is the same thing.
Panel 3:
"Any whom look" is wrong; should be "any who look". Also, "Doth thou" should be "Dost thou"; "doth" is third-person singular, "he doth" and "she doth" and "it doth". (This is when "do" is used as a helping verb. If you use it as a standalone verb, like "what are you doing?", you would say "thou doest", "he/she/it doeth".)
Panel 4:
"Doth thou" --> "Dost thou", as above. Also "thou mightest" rather than "thou might". And if she's using "thou" all the time, she would probably say "thyself" rather than "yourself". but Hope that's helpful rather than pedantic. (Or helpful even if pedantic.) more gooder. i mean, comprehensible. still slightly unparseable but understandable.
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