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 Post Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 6:27 pm 
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I just had a conversation with a person on AIM. To summarize, they asked me to participate in a survey; I agreed; they asked me several questions about my views towards minorities, homosexuals, and Christians, and whether the internet influenced those views; and along the way they told me that Christians were as a whole more tolerant of minorities and gays than non-Christians.

Do you agree with that statement? And what's up with this guy, anyways?
I've never heard of surveys through AIM. Has anything like this happened to you?

The full text of this conversation follows.
My conversation wrote:
Chrch913: Hello?
Astaereth: Hello.
Astaereth: Who's this?
Chrch912: Good afternoon sir, I was wondering if I could have a moment of your time.
Chrch912: I represent a community action group conducting internet surverys
Chrch912: We're trying to get a feel for how the internet has changed the way people work and interact in an effort to better understand new social problems
Astaereth: I see.
Chrch912: Would you mind participating in a brief personal survey?
Astaereth: I suppose not.
Chrch912: Could I get your name, and the region you live in for our records?
Astaereth: Region?
Chrch912: What country you live in, and if you are an American your state of residence
Astaereth: My name is Josh Miller, I live in the US, in Texas.
Chrch912: We like to be able to correlate our answers with specific regions of the US and world
Chrch912: Thank you.
Chrch912: Now, would you describe yourself as a religious person?
Astaereth: No, not especially.
Chrch912: I see, and do you believe the internet has contributed at all to this viewpoint?
Astaereth: Hmm... no, it hasn't.
Chrch912: Ok thank you. Now how would you describe your views towards minorities?
Astaereth: I'm one hundred percent tolerant.
Chrch912: Would you say the internet has influenced this viewpoint?
Astaereth: I think it's quite possible that the internet has brought me into contact with minorities, and that that has influenced me to accept them more fully.
Chrch912: Thank you. How would you describe your views towards homosexuals?
Astaereth: The same.
Chrch912: And would you say the internet has influenced this way of thinking?
Astaereth: Yes, I would.
Chrch912: So to summarize this part of the survey, you would say you are not religious but the internet has not contributed to this viewpoint, but that you feel tolerant of gays and minorities and this has been influenced by the internet. Is this a correct statement?
Astaereth: Yes.
Chrch912: I am going to ask you some more specific questions to clarify your statements
Astaereth: Okay.
Chrch912: Were you raised in a religious family?
Astaereth: No.
Chrch912: Would you describe your upbringing as devoid of the Christian teachings?
Astaereth: Yeah.
Chrch912: What is your viewpoint towards Christians?
Astaereth: I'm fine with them, as long as they're not pushy about it.
Chrch912: So you would perhaps describe yourself as minorly intolerant?
Astaereth: You could say that.
Chrch912: Would you be able to explain why you feel more tolerant of other groups, for example minorities and homosexuals than you do of Christians?
Astaereth: Probably because Christians are, I feel, in general less tolerant of those very same groups.
Chrch912: Do you feel this misinformed viewpoint has been influenced by the internet?
Astaereth: Misinformed?
Chrch912: Well sir, studies have shown that Christians are more likely to support gay and minority groups than non-christians
Chrch912: Would you say your viewpoint has been influenced by the internet?
Astaereth: Yes.
Chrch912: So would it be correct to say that the internet has made you more tolerant of gays and minorities, but instilled intolerance in you towards Christians?
Astaereth: Sure.
Chrch912: Ok thank you sir for your time, I hope you have a nice evening.
Astaereth: You too.
Astaereth: Bye.


(I've changed his name, and the one I gave him was false.)

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 Post Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 6:48 pm 
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Ha! That's hilarious. No doubt in his sermon on Sunday will talk about the evil s of the internet, promoting homosexuality and trash-talking Christianity. I loved in particular the leap from disliking pushy Christians makes you intollerant of Christians. I notice he didn't ask you about Pushy muslims, or pushy Buddists.

I would say that in general being Christian has no effect on one's attitude to minorities, both religious people, and others, are capable of being tolerant or intolerant. I'd dispute quite strongly however, the idea that Christians are more tolerant overall towards homosexuals. A simple comparison of Christan America's and the increasingly secular Europe's attitude towards gay marrige would show you that (although I stress these are generalisations, there are of course Christians who are tolerant of homosexuals, and secular biggots).

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 Post Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 12:05 am 
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My first thought having read partway was that you were talking to some kind of automated response thingumy.

If this had been a door to door salvation salesman, they might not have been so disgruntled when you named pushiness as an off-putting attribute of some christians. :-)

Most of the anti-gay argument comes down to 'god hates gays', so I'd have to say that that makes it look like christians might be a little less gay-friendly than the rest of the population. If this is a misconception, let's see christian groups displaying a bit of love of their gay neighbours, whaddaya say?

I wonder what you'd get if you googled the interviewer's actual id?
Hmmm.

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 Post Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 2:19 am 
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I haven't seen that Christians are any more intolerant or less intolerant than any other major religion or lack thereof. Other major religions that may seem to be more tolerant are simply intolerant in different ways.

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 Post Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 5:08 am 
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I have met way more intolerant Christians on the net then in RL. I guess that is an artefact of both what circles i move in in RL and that in Europe with its generally more secular population intolerant christians will meet more resistance and therefore more conditioned to at least formulate their opinions more carefully.

Regardless of the reasons my experiences on the net have shifted my opinion on christianity from a harmless fancy i don't share, to something that is a harmless fancy with most people but is potentially dangerous and need to be watched.

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 Post Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 8:32 am 
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I think BBill might have a point, with 2 caveats-
1. There are so many flavors of 'Christian' it's hard to talk about reactions by the whole group (even within the very tolerant Anglican Church, for example, the N. American soon-to-be-not-Anglicans (Episcopalians) are too tolerant of gays for the rest of the world).
2. Accepted prejudices and 'intolerances' are likely to be pretty widespread among all religions (we're people, after all) but they may not be equivalent. A generalized dislike of short people (*sings* "got no reason...") isn't the same as a visceral hatred of people with blue hair. If the Nembutols teach the former, while the Reformed Aflatoxin Church of God teach the latter, you can't in fairness say that both religions are equally intolerant.
Anyway, we were talking simply about intolerance of gays and minorities. Any representatives of other religions here who have some knowledge of the attitudes among their groups?

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 Post Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 9:45 am 
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What I'll call "True Christians", which are people like my mother and my religious co-worker, are more tolerant in general than most people - but I use tolerance as one of the measuring sticks for what makes someone a "True" Christian. Basically, liberal Christians are going to be more tolerant than the conservatives - and the liberals outnumber the conservatives (though not in the voting population).

I wouldn't disbelieve that Christians are more tolerant; the Christians you hear on TV and the radio are not particularly representative of Christians as a whole - the tend much more conservative. There isn't, for instance, anyone on CBN or the 700 Club that speaks the views of the UCC, but the UCC is the sixth largest denomination of Christian in the nation. You don't even see that many Episcapalians in these venues.

Christianity isn't unique in this, but it does have as one of its basic tenets (rather than a later-adapted tenet as such things are in Islam and some other religions) of tolerance and equality. Jesus's teachings are to love your neighbour - he never added a caveat of 'unless he's gay'. There's enough Christians who pay more attention to the Old Testament than the New in places of power to make it seem otherwise, but by and large I believe the Christian community - at least in America - is definately more tolerant than it seems, and probably even more tolerant than the "average".

I'm glad I've met enough "True" Christians in my life to not dismiss the whole lot as hateful bigots - and the internet doesn't have a darn thing to do with my opinion. ;)

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 Post Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 1:50 pm 
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Make sure, though, that you're not commiting a "No True Scotsman" fallacy.

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 Post Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 5:59 pm 
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"True Christian" - one who follows the teachings of Jesus, even to the exclusion of contradictary teachings from other Biblical references, including the Old Testament and the Apostle Paul.

Now there's a definition, so there's no logical fallacy.

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 Post Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 6:38 pm 
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Yes, of course. I'm just saying to be careful, 'cause it's an easy mistake to make.

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 Post Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:26 am 
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Bongo Bill wrote:
Yes, of course. I'm just saying to be careful, 'cause it's an easy mistake to make.

Yuppers, just ask President Bush:

-- Tax cuts for the Rich

-- Job cuts for the Middle Class

-- Benefit cuts for the Poor

Jesus said Luke 14:33: "So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple."

Again, Jesus "told the rich man to sell all that he had and give to the poor, come follow me and you will have treasure in Heaven! (Luke 18:22; 12:33-34)

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 Post Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 12:24 pm 
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Oh, Ick. Talk about pushy Christians. I had that happen to me, Malice. The whole 'survey' thing.

A couple of girls were in a friend of mine's dorm room last year. I had never met them before, but they invited me in the room and started talking to me casually. Big smiles all around. My friend left the room and the girls asked me if I could take a survey "for a class of [theirs]". I said sure.
The survey started out pretty normal. Favorite movie, favorite pastime, etc. Then came the big question: Do you feel that you are unable to have a personal relationship with God?
Alarm bells! I was dumbfounded and a little irritated. So I decided to get into it. I played Perfect Christian as they continued asking me the various things I "thought" I knew about God i.e. Did you know that no one person can be good? Only God can be good! and If you could ask one thing to God when you get to heaven, what would it be? Followed by four questions that I would never ask God ("Are you real?" Sheesh. I'm talking to the guy aren't I?)
By the end I felt a bit unclean. I don't know about God, but if I were a diety, I think I'd have an issue with someone who lies about their intentions in order to spread the word about me.

For the Record: as a moderate Catholic, I'm pretty sure that the Church says "yes" to tolerating minorities, "yes" to tolerating homosexuals, and "no" to tolerating the act of homosexuality. But what I was also taught in the little church in Green Bay, WI is that what we really need to do was tolerate everybody including Gays, Pro-Abortionists, Protestants, Buddists...you know, that whole "judge not" thing. Of course, there are tons of different factions within the Catholic church so I guess it depends on what kind of catholic you are. ::shrugs::


Last edited by weatherwax on Mon Feb 28, 2005 12:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 12:29 pm 
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Freakyboy - that's your definition, not necessarily a commonly accepted one. I think it's difficult to state a commonly accepted definition of Christianity, as evidenced by the endless arguments amongst Christians as to which ones are really Christians.

Quote:
Most of the anti-gay argument comes down to 'god hates gays', so I'd have to say that that makes it look like christians might be a little less gay-friendly than the rest of the population. If this is a misconception, let's see christian groups displaying a bit of love of their gay neighbours, whaddaya say?


The argument 'God hates gays' is one I hear advanced very rarely by anti-gay bigots in real life, because I live in a pretty secular society. I still meet plenty of homophobes, though - their 'arguments' tend to come down to 'Bloody puffs. It's disgusting.' instead. And there are plenty of Christians who are perfectly tolerant towards gays. Your faith might well influence your prejudices, but I think any sort of generalisation would be difficult to make without several indepth studies.

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 Post Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 1:43 pm 
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I did say that I call them "True" Christians, not that I expect anyone else to. ;)

They all consider themselves Christians, at least. I, though I act and think in ways rather similar to theirs, don't consider myself a Christian.

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 Post Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 7:59 pm 
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drdave wrote:
Bongo Bill wrote:
Yes, of course. I'm just saying to be careful, 'cause it's an easy mistake to make.

Yuppers, just ask President Bush:

-- Tax cuts for the Rich

-- Job cuts for the Middle Class

-- Benefit cuts for the Poor

Jesus said Luke 14:33: "So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple."

Again, Jesus "told the rich man to sell all that he had and give to the poor, come follow me and you will have treasure in Heaven! (Luke 18:22; 12:33-34)


Was there a point to this? I'm an atheist and this isn't the place for a discussion of Bush's economic policies.

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