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 Post subject: Re: Trump.
 Post Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:49 pm 
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I'm much more bothered by the allegation that he forced a kiss on the actress than by his knuckle-dragging prank photo. If this was characteristic behaviour, there'll be more women coming out of the woodwork shortly.

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 Post subject: Re: Trump.
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:33 am 
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As for that, it's the classic 'he said, she said'; and she's an overt Trumpie making the charge in the same breath as she was apparently lying about the photo, and at a very politically expedient time for the Trump camp who she was obviously collaborating with (they were shopping it around the day before she spoke). Neither she nor they would hesitate to lie for any gain or none; and she has an obvious incentive to lie here.

He, on the other hand, has a long history of behaving decently towards women and being supportive of their general welfare; and a number of women he's worked with are voluntarily coming forward to say he doesn't do that kind of crap. Stuff happens, but all of this considered it would take more than just her unsupported word to make this really credible. The charges against Trump and Moore have been corroborated, this hasn't been, and all of it should be weighed on that basis.

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 Post subject: Re: Trump.
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:46 pm 
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That's why I said if it's true, there'll be more women coming forward. A second woman has just said that he grabbed her butt during a photo op at a state fair. We shall see if there is a third and a fourth. (I'm not counting the one who said Franken tried to call her at home to badger her about her views on taxes.)

Franken's record on women's issues is irrelevant to his personal behaviour. Weinstein supported Planned Parenthood and Louis C.K. called himself a feminist. Male entitlement has no political boundaries.

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 Post subject: Re: Trump.
 Post Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:42 am 
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You've got a point about the politics, though Franken has done a lot more practical good than the two you spoke of. That said, both of his accusers are Trumpies and their credibility could be better under the circumstances; what with the various lifelong Republicans who have come out against Trump and Moore versus the one Democratic someone tried to involve who gave Franken a clean bill of health.

Bottom line, if Senator Franken is given to molesting women then there is essentially no chance that he only happened to prey on those who eventually supported Trump. They're what, just over one in four? He would have had to offend plenty of folks in the majority, too. As they start coming forward, which they would, then I'll find the whole thing a lot more likely.

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 Post subject: Re: Trump.
 Post Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:28 pm 
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I feel he's in a position now, to do more good by resigning than by staying.

Franken, that is. Trump could DEFINITELY do more good by resigning than by staying.

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 Post subject: Re: Trump.
 Post Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:33 pm 
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Dammit, now it's John Lasseter. Noooo! Not Pixar!

It's starting to look like it would be faster to list the important men who haven't harassed women. The douchebags, they are everywhere.

I also find it pretty indicative of this messed up cultural moment that many people only consider allegations of abuse credible if the victim is of the same political party as the perpetrator.

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 Post subject: Re: Trump.
 Post Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:05 pm 
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Until recently you couldn't safely predict who was a left/right winger or moderate in the US just by knowing their party. Well, for the major parties anyway; Socialist Worker or Dixiecrat were kind of easy to guess. Now you can. It makes knowing who can't be trusted absent proof or whose ideas induces cognitive dissidence much simpler to work out; and turned what was fairly marginal behavior into a mainstream meme.

And yes, the douchebags are everywhere. Up the patriarchy.

Kitoba, it's a bit early to get rid of Senator Al. Set the precedent that if just two Republicans make unproven accusations of non-criminal (if boorish) behavior against a Democrat then they're gone? We'd never have a Democrat last a day in office. A bit higher standard is needed here.

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 Post subject: Re: Trump.
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:24 am 
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1) People who want to abuse power, have more incentive to strive for positions of power.

2) Negative feedback to people in power often comes understated. So people in power can easily get the impression "Hey the boundaries are way farer away, then i assumed, i have been way more carefull then neccessary" and thus gradually shift towards more abusive behaviour. And especially if people are used to more abusive behaviour from other people in power, they will not critisize thoose, who are only a little abusive, and thus the better ones will also be sent on the path to the douchebag.

3) That one is more speculative and might have to do much with my own personal preferences, but to me positions of power always seemed pretty crappy jobs in themselfs, and the only reason why anyone would want such a job are the money and to attract chicks*. So it could be there are guys in power, with the attitude "Okay i went to all that crap to get here, so where are my chicks?".

* I also have entertained the idea, that there are fewer women in positions of power, because they are not prepared to put up with as much crap, to get there, because the additional incentive of having it easier to get laid is not there for them.

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 Post subject: Re: Trump.
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:49 pm 
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And two more women come forward about Franken groping them (if anonymously). I'm starting to think an ethics committee inquiry might be enlightening.

In other news it's amusing to see just how blatantly the current Congressional tax bills are screwing everyone but worthless plutocratic heirs. To the extent you work and need to you're taxed, and vice versa. I can't help but wonder, though, if trying to kill the ACA to raise more money for said heirs will kill the deal the same way it did the last time.

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 Post subject: Re: Trump.
 Post Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:47 pm 
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arcosh wrote:
* I also have entertained the idea, that there are fewer women in positions of power, because they are not prepared to put up with as much crap, to get there, because the additional incentive of having it easier to get laid is not there for them.

A major piece of the crap that women have to put up with to get into positions of power is the abusive behaviour of men who are already in power. Abusive men are cruel to lower-ranked men as well as women, of course, but men are less often on the receiving end of groping and demands for sex. Of course fewer women are willing to put up with crap if the crap they get comes in Extra Creepy flavour.

Weremensh wrote:
And two more women come forward about Franken groping them (if anonymously). I'm starting to think an ethics committee inquiry might be enlightening.

They were just random constituents, too. As a not very powerful woman, it is hard for me to fathom how even a boor could be this stupid. It's classic pooping where you sleep - you know, maybe don't grope your own voters seeing as you need their votes? Of course, old H.W. Bush seems to do the same thing, so who knows how their minds work?

As for the tax bill, the whole thing appears to have been written on the basis of nothing more than "Hey let's tax things Democrats like, hur dee hur hur". They're probably hoping there won't be a public outcry over the backdoor dismantling of health care just because it's got "taxes" in the name and not "health care".

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 Post subject: Re: Trump.
 Post Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:56 am 
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Kea wrote:
arcosh wrote:
* I also have entertained the idea, that there are fewer women in positions of power, because they are not prepared to put up with as much crap, to get there, because the additional incentive of having it easier to get laid is not there for them.

A major piece of the crap that women have to put up with to get into positions of power is the abusive behaviour of men who are already in power. Abusive men are cruel to lower-ranked men as well as women, of course, but men are less often on the receiving end of groping and demands for sex. Of course fewer women are willing to put up with crap if the crap they get comes in Extra Creepy flavour.



i don't think there is one explaination for everything, and i know i am speculative here and might well be subject to confirmation bias and my formulation of "putting up with crap" i guess was misleading with regards to what i meant.

But my impression is, that there are people who seek power as means to some end. some of them are men some women and pretty universally they meet some glass ceilling, regardless of their gender. And there are people who seek power for it's own sake and they tend to get much farer and thoose are predominantly male.

With the latter i can usually get in a quite comfortable arrangement, being on a symbolic level submissive to them, in exchange for practically never being ordered to do something, that i would not do on my own anyway. But if you defy them openly, they might fight you tooth and nail. I am not really sure what motivates them, but my first guess is, that they want to impress women with their alpha credentials.

I am not entirely sure if there is a real correlation of that type of behaviour with sexual misconduct. There are some chaste expressions of social dominance, that look a lot like milder forms of sexual haressment, like taking up space and forcing the other person to walk around you, or initiating (usually in itself not particulary remarkable) physical contact, with an air of entitlement. And some sexual misconduct might be a method of intimitation or to otherwise forcing someone into submission.

I strongly suspect that at least for the severe cases, the perpetrators carefully selected their victims and spent a lot of effort, to set the stage and go only as far as they can get away with (at least in the short or middle run). Otherwise i would consider it implausible, that there are so many cases, and AFAIK not a single one of them got out, because some victim had more temper then sense of self preservation and either of the involved parties needed medical attention afterwards. So i don't buy a "they just have strong urges" theory.

And for many of the severe cases, if it is about sex for the perpetrators, they are not rational actors. For the money they spent on settlements, they could likely have bought plenty of prostitutes, who would have played along with whatever they wanted, if this is their thing also a pretended rape. And while humans often are not rational actors, i lean more to explainations, that has them exercising power for it's own sake, or heir sexual misconduct being a means to give them more nimbus of power.

And as final disclaimer, that was more a brainstorming thing, then a well formed theory for me. I am failry certain i contradicted myself somewhere in there, but i don't want to go through it all again right now.

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 Post subject: Re: Trump.
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:09 am 
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It sounds as though the Republican tax bill is going to go through.

Meanwhile, Flynn appears to have decided to cooperate with Mueller.

The Republicans must be scrambling to get their tax cuts through before the indictments start rolling.

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 Post subject: Re: Trump.
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:59 pm 
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It wasn't until today I realized that Pete predicted (all the way back in 1999!) that in the near future an abusive and bullying reality show host would be elected president of the USA, with disastrous, potentially world-ending results.

Image

He was only off by 8 years (4 if you include the fact that this is a re-election button).

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 Post subject: Re: Trump.
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:22 pm 
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I find it amusing that the gross incompetence the Republicans have cultivated at writing laws has bitten them so hard now. The Senate was clearly banking on handing the House a 'take it or leave it' deal, which might possibly have passed. Unfortunately they accidentally eliminated the benefit of every single corporate tax deduction (you pay 20% of the gross whether you deduct or not). This is completely unacceptable to the folks paying for this bill, so the Senate has to vote again like it or not. And the House knows it.

Expect the deals made for those last two Senate votes to go down in flames in the next, oh, eight seconds. Then it'll get messy.

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 Post subject: Re: Trump.
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:09 pm 
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They'll likely twist enough arms to fix it somehow. It'd be too embarrassing to let their only bill of the year fail now.

In other news:
-Have you seen H. R. McMaster and Lindsay Graham trying to bluff North Korea with "we're totally going to war and Seoul is going to get blown to smithereens if you don't stop doing that"? Uh... Run away!

-Republicans with any remaining standards have been forced to eat crow and basically endorse Roy Moore.

- Whatever Flynn's telling Mueller, it'd better be good. But I'm concerned because Flynn's got a strong incentive to make it sound like he has more knowledge of Trump's wrongdoing than he actually does.

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