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 Post subject: The Salvador Option
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2005 9:12 pm 
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Sounds like a Robert Ludlum novel, huh? Quaint and mysterious? If only.
The Salvador Option is the plan to, in the words of Newsweek (who broke the story), 'put Special-Forces-led assassination or kidnapping teams in Iraq'.

Quote:
Now, NEWSWEEK has learned, the Pentagon is intensively debating an option that dates back to a still-secret strategy in the Reagan administration’s battle against the leftist guerrilla insurgency in El Salvador in the early 1980s. Then, faced with a losing war against Salvadoran rebels, the U.S. government funded or supported "nationalist" forces that allegedly included so-called death squads directed to hunt down and kill rebel leaders and sympathizers. Eventually the insurgency was quelled, and many U.S. conservatives consider the policy to have been a success—despite the deaths of innocent civilians and the subsequent Iran-Contra arms-for-hostages scandal.


It gets better...
Quote:
Following that model, one Pentagon proposal would send Special Forces teams to advise, support and possibly train Iraqi squads, most likely hand-picked Kurdish Peshmerga fighters and Shiite militiamen, to target Sunni insurgents and their sympathizers, even across the border into Syria, according to military insiders familiar with the discussions. It remains unclear, however, whether this would be a policy of assassination or so-called "snatch" operations, in which the targets are sent to secret facilities for interrogation. The current thinking is that while U.S. Special Forces would lead operations in, say, Syria, activities inside Iraq itself would be carried out by Iraqi paramilitaries, officials tell NEWSWEEK.


One day I'd like to read the paper and not be filled with the desire to smack my head on the table.

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 Post subject: Re: The Salvador Option
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2005 10:08 pm 
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Eventually the insurgency was quelled, and many U.S. conservatives consider the policy to have been a success—despite the deaths of innocent civilians and the subsequent Iran-Contra arms-for-hostages scandal.

Isn't it odd that these same folks are the most uncomfortable with the thought that an American might have to answer for crimes against humanity and crimes against the peace in front of an international tribunal? Of course, they won't admit that their own butts are in danger of rotting in prison somewhere; it's `the troops' that they're looking out for. The same troops these `conservatives' care nothing for when it's time to buy body armor, or fund health care, must feel truly comforted by this legal concern.

Btw; is anyone in the Pentagon really stupid enough to discuss this plan without knowing the blowback will be a bitch? The Turks must be going bat poo at the thought we want to organize and train Kurdish hit squads to operate right on their border...

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 Post Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2005 1:03 am 
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I hate to sound like one of those 'conservative' bozos, but I think the idea of using surgical assassination is much more humane and logical than throwing bodies at a target we want to eliminate. If a person is an insurgent and a killer, kill him. Don't launch a strike that accidently kills a family of four or ten American soldiers. Kill the person that is the problem. It could easily spin out of control, so I don't support this action, but in concept assassination is much better. Especially with those that we can't capture because they are protected by foreign governments.

Another thing. Remember the rates and sources of information when criticizing the 'conservatives'. I style myself a liberal. I was recently titled a 'natural-law' liberal, though I'm not sure what that means, but one thing I've learned is you can't trust any media. Stirring up people pays too well and the media is all about the money. The death squads of El Salvador were an operation started by the El Salvadoran government, without direct or implicit desire from the US Government. Contrary to popular belief, the conservatives in government care about people too, they just think that helping business helps people, which is flawed. They wouldn't write off civilian casualties unless they were unavoidable.

The only evidence of Military training of death squads were of official government sanctioned ones that targeted persons involved in the insurgency. There were also other death squads, these ones not sanctioned and comprised of civilians which did most of the real terrible killing. The sanctioned ones may have inspired the unsanctioned ones perhaps, but the unsanctioned insurgency inspired some killing of civilians too such as when they pulled the triggers.

Now, whether this would be good in Iraq or not is something worthy of debate because, as a liberal, I think the elimination of murderers, kidnappers, rapists and terrorists too be a good thing, since the government is supposed to provide me with a safe and secure environment without comprimising my freedom. Killing one to avert an attack is much better than killing a thousand to do so.

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 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:52 am 
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Mythycol wrote:
I hate to sound like one of those 'conservative' bozos, but I think the idea of using surgical assassination is much more humane and logical than throwing bodies at a target we want to eliminate.


It does sound logical. The reason this begins to stray into crimes against humanity territory is two-fold:

1. Who do you assassinate? Where do you stop? Who gets to decide who gets killed? Does it end at insurgency or continue into politics?

2. If we start knocking off the leaders (insurgency or foreign) who oppose us, what's to stop a foreign nation from doing the same in our country? Why is it called terrorism when someone else does this?

Weremensh wrote:
Btw; is anyone in the Pentagon really stupid enough to discuss this plan without knowing the blowback will be a bitch? The Turks must be going bat poo at the thought we want to organize and train Kurdish hit squads to operate right on their border...


The Bush Junta can't do anything right. Everything they touch turns to excrement. Weren't you the one with the post about Russia selling syria anti-air missiles? This will probably have a similar effect somewhere. It's like our Neo-Con masters just love to brag to the world about how liberated from common decency we have become.

The Bush administration hates this country and the freedom it stands for, it won't rest until it has so blackened our reputation and caused such horrors that we get invaded by a coalition of the willing.

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 Post Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2005 1:09 pm 
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Mythycol - read the UN Truth commission report on death squads in El Salvador. Here's a few important points:

Quote:
It should be said that, while it is possible to differentiate the armed forces death squads from the civilian death squads, the borderline between the two was often blurred. For instance, even the quads that were not organized as part of any State structure were often supported or tolerated by State institutions. Frequently, death squads operated in coordination with the armed forces and acted as a support structure for their activities. The clandestine nature of these activities made it possible to conceal the State's responsibility for them and created an atmosphere of complete impunity for the murderers who worked in the squads. …


Quote:
…[I]t must be pointed out that the United States Government tolerated, and apparently paid little official heed to the activities of Salvadoran exiles living in Miami…[T]his group of exiles directly financed and indirectly helped run certain death squads.


It's also worth reading the report on the Sumpul River massacre, in which "units of Military Detachment No. 1, the National Guard and the paramilitary Organizacion Nacional Democratica (ORDEN) deliberately killed at least 300 non-combatants, including women and children". Your claim that government death squads only targeted armed insurgents is starting to fall apart.

The military in El Salvador, with the full knowledge and support of the US government, massacred thousands of civillians. I'll leave you with this touching description of military activity offered by Reverend Daniel Santiago, a Jesuit priest:

Quote:
People are not just killed by death squads in El Salvador -- they are decapitated and then their heads are placed on pikes and used to dot the landscape. Men are not just disemboweled by the Salvadoran Treasury Police; their severed genitalia are stuffed into their mouths. Salvadoran women are not just raped by the National Guard; their wombs are cut from their bodies and used to cover their faces. It is not enough to kill children; they are dragged over barbed wire until the flesh falls from their bones, while parents are forced to watch.

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 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 3:01 pm 
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Not to play devil's advocate, but at this point, I'm not sure I trust the U.N. any more than I do any other larger beurocratic entity. Their "truth" is often skewed by their own political agenda.
Look at the recent oil for food scandal to see how well they like telling the truth and acting in the best interest of those they are claiming to help in times of need.
I'm not saying that what this report states is not true, but I am one to question a source.
The priest may also have witnessed attrocities committed by people claiming to be part of these sanctioned death squads who actually were simple mobs looking for blood. How many groups take credit for terrorist acts before we find the ones that are actually responsible? I mean the insurgents couldn't possibly benefit by making another group take the blame for their actions.
Just feeding the flames of debate :kzk:

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 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 8:06 pm 
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Kalile wrote:
Not to play devil's advocate, but at this point, I'm not sure I trust the U.N. any more than I do any other larger bureaucratic entity. Their "truth" is often skewed by their own political agenda.

And Bush's view of things is not skewed by an agenda? Reagan's support of the Salvadoran government (and its death squads) was not skewed? Reagan's sale of missiles for drugs for guns for assinations was not skewed by a political agenda?

How many of the world's 220 leaders qualify under your "bad guy" policy for "termination"?

How far down the slippery slope are you willing to go? And which branch of the Hatfields and McCoys do you belong to?

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 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 1:55 am 
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Kalile wrote:
Not to play devil's advocate, but at this point, I'm not sure I trust the U.N. any more than I do any other larger beurocratic entity. Their "truth" is often skewed by their own political agenda.
Look at the recent oil for food scandal to see how well they like telling the truth and acting in the best interest of those they are claiming to help in times of need.
I'm not saying that what this report states is not true, but I am one to question a source.
The priest may also have witnessed attrocities committed by people claiming to be part of these sanctioned death squads who actually were simple mobs looking for blood. How many groups take credit for terrorist acts before we find the ones that are actually responsible? I mean the insurgents couldn't possibly benefit by making another group take the blame for their actions.
Just feeding the flames of debate :kzk:
Pick up any decent book about what happened in El salvador for the full story. This isn't some fib made up by the nasty ol' UN (who want to remove the constitution and take away our guns and, with the athiests of the EU to create a world state purely for the purposes of annoying Red State Americans).

Sorry, did that sound bitter? Really though, what happened in Central America has nothing to do with the UN and everything to do with us behaving very badly. The idea of exporting that kind of terror to Iraq seems rather like fighting a fire by throwing gas on it. hearts and minds, people, hearts and minds.

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 Post subject: Re: The Salvador Option
 Post Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 11:20 pm 
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Weremensh wrote:
Quote:
Isn't it odd that these same folks are the most uncomfortable with the thought that an American might have to answer for crimes against humanity and crimes against the peace in front of an international tribunal?

I understand that Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld has cancelled a trip to Germany for this reason.

See University of Pittsburgh Law School:

Rumsfeld cancels Germany trip under war crimes cloud

Bernard Hibbitts at 7:44 PM

[JURIST] US Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld [official profile] has canceled plans to fly to Germany in February to attend the Munich Conference on Security Policy [official website], giving rise to speculation that the cancellation is connected with a war crimes complaint [JURIST report] brought against him in the German courts in November and currently under investigation by the federal prosecutor's office in Karlsruhe. The lawsuit, launched by the New York-based Center for Constitutional Rights [advocacy website], accuses Rumsfeld of responsibility for torture and abuse of Iraqi detainees at Abu Ghraib prison in Baghdad. German law permits war crimes prosecution of individuals in Germany notwithstanding their nationality. After the complaint [English translation, PDF; CCR backgrounder] was filed Rumsfeld indicated that he would not come to the Munich conference unless it were dropped or dismissed. Deutsche Press Agentur has more.

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 Post Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 11:28 pm 
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Mythycol wrote:
The death squads of El Salvador were an operation started by the El Salvadoran government, without direct or implicit desire from the US Government. Contrary to popular belief, the conservatives in government care about people too, they just think that helping business helps people, which is flawed. They wouldn't write off civilian casualties unless they were unavoidable. ... Killing one to avert an attack is much better than killing a thousand to do so.

Oh, if only we had killed only one, or at least kept it to a thousand in El Salvador, in order to save it from its imagined enemies.

What we did was finance the Salvador option, named after the brutal repression that the U.S. government oversaw in that country in the 1980s, when the CIA financed, trained, and armed death squads that killed and tortured tens of thousands of people.

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 Post Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 11:52 pm 
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I've always been tempted to ask my mom what happened in El Salvador... hmmm... maybe I have an excuse.

(BTW, My mom is from El Salvador, and most of my relatives on her side still live there. My likes to attribute the fact that nothing happened to my abulita's gas station or house to the fact that two of my aunts apprently had a thing for soldiers. I don't know if that's true or not, but that's what she likes to think.)

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 Post Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 12:06 am 
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If we did this, wouldn't it open the door to other countries doing the same thing to us? If we assassinated, say, the leader of Iran, could another Middle East country decide to assassinate Bush? Would this be justified?

Actually, if that would happen, I'd be all for it. :kiki:

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