I was raised as an atheist, and I have some pretty hefty moral values. They are different from the moral values of most theists, but they are values. I met some very amoral people recently who made me realize that this situation of mine is not the norm in American culture.

Wider american culture embraces capitalism, self-sufficiency, and selfishness. There are no moral or ideal values common to all of our culture. The Europeans have a communitarian perspective; it's important to take care of all of the people. Europe also has much less religious fundamentalism than does America.

American fundamentalism is a reaction to the fact that there is no other source for morals in our society. Religous morals are the only morals we have.

This is not true for every american; values recieved from the family itself can be very different than the wider cultural values. But in all the media that surrounds us, there is not moral message that is not also a religous message.

This is the greatest failing of American culture. There are a few morals and rules that are sometimes paid lip service, but the big issue is simply to avoid being caught. It's okay to look down upon black people, as long as you don't let black people know you are doing it. It's fine to cheat on your taxes, as long as the IRS doesn't know. Stealing copyrighted material is fine (in our culture it's okay to copy a rented tape or download an episode of Family Guy), as long as you don't sell it, because then you could get caught.

Just for clarification where are we supposed to go with this idea? Look at why America is amoral, or start a list of other reasons America is amoral?

I think you drastically underestimate the degree of moral diversity in Europe. We do have religious fundamentalists (although they're a tiny minority, unlike in the states), and plenty of people with very individualist moral outlooks as well as the communitarian ones. Heck, in the UK we elected Thatcher 3 times for crying out loud's sake.

America isn't as amoral as you seem to believe.
And what's wrong with the wider american culture embracing self-sufficency? And Capitalism? Since when where both those things Amoral.
Also, as to whether Americans are selfish can be debated.
There are no moral ideas common to our culture because our culture is composed of people from many different places. Just because our morals come from different places doesn't mean their bad.
"Religous morals are the only morals we have." I'm sorry but here you are just dead wrong.


"It's okay to look down upon black people, as long as you don't let black people know you are doing it." Ever heard of Martin Luther King Day? Black history month?

"Stealing copyrighted material is fine (in our culture it's okay to copy a rented tape or download an episode of Family Guy), as long as you don't sell it, because then you could get caught." In most cases it's only teens who do this.

Elfy:

You also have to understand the roots of "Americanism". As G.K. Chesterton once stated "The United States of America is the only country that was founded on a Creed."

Yes, in America most of the social morality is religious in basis. This is because the US was originally collinated by individuals seeking to set up a religious community that was seen as to rigid by european standards. that is still the basis of the American political/social system. Every one of our founding documents begins with religious declarations, and the first amendment to our constitution is religious in nature.

Since you stated you were an atheist, I can truly understand how this seems a negative situation. What little morality we have is tied to "religious fundamentalists". However, this is all due to our founding.

The US has stayed close to its religious roots compared to our European counterparts. You may argue that Europe is better off this way, but many in the US would disagree. This can be seen in the last election which was basically decided by the religious political activists.

I would argue that America is not "amoral". I used to say that prior to the last election, but the outcomes showed that America does have a strong sense of morality (on either side of issues), it is just different from our European counterparts.

My personnal feelings? This is for the best. Then again...that is purely my opinion.

Jarne wrote:


Nothing is wrong with those two ideas. But like anything in life they have their pros and cons. For example take self-sufficiency, it is positive becuase it causes a person to relly on themself most of the time. It is negative becuase it can cause people to ignore help when offered, and think only of themselves, becuase they are the only ones working for themselves. Capitalism is good in theory becuase it lets people compete to earn money based on the work they do not a social class. In practice however people will skew the competetion so that the already rich have a great advantage.

Just my two cents

Crake, you can do whatever you want with this topic. I came to a realization, and I thought it would both be good to vet it here and fun to see how you all reacted to it.

I don't see anything wrong with self-sufficiency, selfishness or capitalism. There are very utilitarian in many situations. The problem occurs when they are used as the only guidepost for decision making. These three ideas are not immoral ideas, but they are also not moral principles. It feels to me as if they have replaced moral principles in our society.

Jarne argues that America has too many different moral principles to be easily distilled, while CaptPlatypus argues that America was founded by religious zealots and still carries their religious moral principles. I think these two arguments are mutually exclusive.

My fiance was looking over my shoulder as I read your replies, and he mentioned that while Plymouth was founded for religion, Jamestown was founded for profit. To me, those two colonies put together seem to support my thesis fairly well.


Do you mean that you used to think that America was immoral? I'm not trying to argue that Americans break their morals any more than any other nationality. I'm simply trying to argue that the umbrella culture has no morals at all. And I do not dispute that there is a large amount of religious moral strength in America. I just don't think there is any other king of moral strength here.

Another reason I brought this idea up is that I used to have extensive discussions of religion with my peers, and they would almost universally question my ability to have any kind of moral compass because all morality comes from God. I never understood that at all, but I think I get it know, because our culture's morality does come from God.

Yes, Jarne, I know we have some significant religious diversity in America, but we at least play lip service to general rules such as "treat people equally/well/as you would like to be treated/as they deserve" "Do not steal" and "Do not kill." But I think the only impulse behind these rules is religious, not otherwise cultural. Martin Luther King was a preacher, and he was quite disliked by a large majority of the white american population while he was alive. It is also quite consistent with selfishness for the African-American population to enforce equal treatment for themselves. This equality becomes something only enforced by moral rules when among the privileged groups, and I know I am NOT alone in hearing a large amount of racist comments when the commentors expect that there is no enforcer of equality around. They quickly learn otherwise, but that doesn't mean that they have been persuaded by a moral imperative.


Caffine, and Jarne in the same way, you've got me there. This idea is very simplified, very reductionist. Of course there is a lot more going on in the cultures on both sides of the Atlantic. But I simply feel that when American say they need to take care of the poor or help the Tsunami victims, it's out of Christian charity and when the Europeans say the same it's out of a much wider, less religious impulse.

elfy wrote:


I have to disagree with you there elfy. I think rules like "do not kill" or "do not steal" simply come from the human disire to be treated with dignity. Or basicly the golden rule treat others as you would want to be treated. Elfy what what are you saying that it is bad that the majority of America's morals come from religion? I think each person's morals are slightly different becuase of many things such as their family life, their friends, what they think of the world around them, and their general cultural surroundings. For example two people who both have strong Christian faiths, one in California and one in Alaska will both have different morals based on the type of lives they have lead.

Or maybe just my own opinion. I really dislike steryotypes so I try very hard to judge people on an individual basis.

Now I understand what you're saying.

IMO, the problem is not that people are amoral or uncaring, it's that they don't think they can make a difference, so why bother to try?

Well its kind of inevitable that you don't think you can make a difference when you are one out of hundreds of millions of people and don't hae a lot of money or punlicity. Or they could have realized this as Stalin said,



yes I may have mangeled the quote but I got the gist of it right.

i dont know many americans, and those i do know i tend to think are the good ones (sluggites!) so i really have no oppinion on the motivation for morality in america. It does seem to me that there is less true empathy in america then there aught to be, but i cant say thats different anywhere else (never been anywhere but canada and the states)

but let me adress a few issues:

so you're saying that the previous election proved that americans have morals... i could list a bunch of things that i consider highly immoral, in this regard, but i dont see the point... that seemed to be an attempt at turning this thread political, when, well, its not. Just let it be known that i completely dissagree.


i wouldnt say that capitolism and self-sufficiency is Amoral so much as it is, by definition, Selfish, and therefore not Moral. Looking out for ones self has nothing to do with how one treats others, except that it tends to cause people to be more negligent then usual. On a more complex level, capitolism as a cultural influence will cause people to be more materialistic, in general, i think, viewing wealth and material posessions to be more important then perhaps they should be viewed. this leads to things like greed and jealousy, which can lead to immoral behavior, for example, stealing and manipulation.

swingerzetta wrote:


Huh? True empathy? Whats that? Are you trying to say Americans have a narrower scope for understanding others? Yes I'm easily confused by terms I don't know.

yeah, thats exactly what i meant. They... dont "feel eachothers pain" so to speak. But as i say, i dont know if this is just americans or not.

There are plenty of racists in Europe so we aren't in any way superior to the US in that respect.

I think the reason why europeans value communities and draging along everyone more does not really have a moral reasons in most cases either. I think europeans are just on average more pessimistic and assume that they have a high chance to have to get dragged along sooner or later themself.

I think saying that America has less empathy than the rest of the world is missing the point a little. I think that apathy is on the rise, especially among young people; and I think that America simply has a culture, based on selfishness and capitalism, that allows that apathy to be outspoken and somewhat socially acceptable--more so than other countries.

In other words, I think the problem is global; but America's culture and society allow for it to be a bit stronger and a bit more open.