One thing I noticed whilst at this year's European Social Forum (a gathering of leftists and progressives from across Europe), was that of all the issues on which there was significant disagreement, the only one that appeared to be significantly divided by nationality was the decision by the French government to ban the hijab and other overtly religious symbols from schools. The majority of French activists were in favour of it, while the majority of others were against it.

There are two things I wanted to ask you all about - first, what is it about the history, culture or current situation of France that has led to this strange alliance between communists and fascists against the headscarf which hasn't been replicated anywhere else?

Second, is the ban a good idea? I read an interesting article which made the point about free choice being a dodgy issue for young children by questioning our attitude about a 12 year-old wearing a t-shirt declaring 'Socialism or death'. But on the other hand, the ban covers teachers as well as other public employees; and does it really make sense to impose an age limit on outward expressions of religious or political belief?

Thoughts?

Edit: corrected the horribly messed up url which for some reason I didn't notice when I posted this.

It's a ridiculous repression of individual rights. The government is supposed to be secular, but its citizens can be as religious(or non-religious) as they like.

I have heard that unlike other countries that encourage the idea of "multiculturalism", France has always insisted that its immigrants assimilate into French culture. The headscarf ban was largely motivated by people being bothered by the refusal (or inability) of Muslims to do so. So, support from the far right was motivated by xenophobia. Support from the far left? Um, not so sure. Probably to do with the communists' traditional distrust of religion.

It's not always the safe bet to say that the right is motivated by xenophobia when France seems to catch its share of terrorists (whom they release shortly after.) But then it's hard to compare the French right (which is basically socialism tamed down), and the American right (which is capitalism through and through.)

However the issue is, if it is a part of your religion to wear a headwrap you should be able to wear a headwrap. There is nothing harmful in wearing a headwrap, nor is there anything wrong with expressing your religion. The harm comes when people start bombing buildings and killing innocent people because they don't belong to the same very hard to join club.

And yeah, France is very strict about maintaining it's nationalism, which in some cases is good (preserving the beauty of its spoken language), and in others (see above) it's bad.

France is the only or one of the few countries in europe where the aristocratic and religious esteblishment was actually removed by force in a revolution. Not only that but that had developed to an indentifing moment for the selfunderstanding of their nation.

So i think such preemptive strikes against religious influence is a national fetish for France, like every nation has one. (I have yet to meet any non Austrian who holds the opinion that Austrias neutrality actually serves any practical purpose anymore for instance)

I think the ban is a bad idea. IMO it is a cornerstone of modern western culture that you can wear what you like. (I am even against laws agaisnt indecent exposure) You should not compromise that with some hip shots trying to force people into their luck.

I was talking about the French far-right, which is what I think Caffeine was referring to. The likes of Jean Marie le Pen. I thought the entire point of his party was anti-immigration. His entire platform is to deport the foreigners, because they offend his cultural sensibilities and because he blames them for everything from crime to unemployment, and he's been harping on this long before anyone recognised any terrorist threat.

Sounds like a lot of the French people I worked with when I was there last year! =)

Frankly, I think that most French people are just generally xenophobic. That's actually one of the things they told us when we got to the place we were working during orientation. French people take a very long time to warm up to people because they've had this view point ingrained into them for all their lives.

*ponder* It just occurred to me that at the highschool I went to, you weren't allowed to wear any headgear or jewellery _unless_ it was religious. We had a rigidly-enforced uniform code (your hair ties had to be a certain colour, for heaven's sakes) that forbade any sort of personal expression, except for the religious type. Complete opposite of the French.

Hmmm. While I agree that the ban is a bad idea, insofar as it is an infringment of an individual's liberty to dress as they please, the flip side is that the argument is not so much anti-religious, more anti-sexism. The scarf is considered by many (my own fiercely agnostic mother, for example) as a symbol of the oppression of women, a kind of burqa-lite, if you will. Women have to cover up, lest the men have the dirty thoughts. I know that in some Muslim countries women cannot leave their homes without being covered.

Now, if people in your community had to cover up to please the religious views of others, would this please you?

Just a thought.

Although not only hijabs and burkhas are banned. So are turbans, Jewish skullcaps and large crosses (probably some other things as well).

The argument against burkas and such as a sign of the opression of women only holds up when the women wear them because they are oppressed. There are lots of women who were born and raised in western countries, and chose to wear the head scarves, and had daughters who were also born and raised in western countries who made the same choice. If a woman is oppressed in a western country, it's got a lot more to do with her choice to remain with people who are oppressing her than with some kind of societal or cultural pressure. And guess what, she's allowed to chose that. Not letting her would be true oppression.

The fact is, lots of women who wear the head scarves don't see it as a sign of oppression at all, but as a sign of their religious devotion, or even of their cultural identity. As long as they are given a choice, that's what matters.

Interestingly enough, there's been an increase in the use of headscarves in the Lebanese middle class, and I've read about a fair few families where the parents look down on their children for choosing to adopt the headscarf, or try and prevent them from doing so. The parents see the headscarf as primitive and out of touch with their 'enlightened, Western' views, while the girls see it as a mark of rebellion, defiance, and solidarity with the suffering in Iraq and Palestine.