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 Post subject: Re: Sexuality questions.
 Post Posted: Tue May 07, 2013 4:11 am 
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Jorodryn wrote:
So if a gay man gets married to a woman and fesses up later about his gender identity you are saying he should still honor his promise to her? got it.


Depends on what exactly you mean by honoring the promise. He is in exactly the same situation as heterosexuals are, who are no longer sexually interested in their spouses, but have sexual interests elsewhere. What they should do, depends heavily on individual factors then.

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 Post subject: Re: Sexuality questions.
 Post Posted: Tue May 07, 2013 7:37 am 
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The honest thing to do in that case is come out to her, reach an agreeable solution which is likely to include ending the marriage, THEN go and mess around with guys.

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 Post subject: Re: Sexuality questions.
 Post Posted: Tue May 07, 2013 12:50 pm 
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Steave wrote:
While this may be true it doesn't mean we can't worry about it at the same time as worrying about the supposedly more important and consequential things.


I'm not trying to belittle the topic. But it frustrates me that the church, in particular, is hung up on questions of sexuality at a time when there's so much need for moral leadership on issues of poverty, violence and the environment.

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 Post subject: Re: Sexuality questions.
 Post Posted: Tue May 07, 2013 1:23 pm 
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I don't see where the church is hung up on it. What I see is there are people that say accept what I am doing and the church response is no. The 'no' gets all of the attention. There are self proclaimed Christians making a bigger deal out of it than the churches are. I think the way certain churches respond could be quite a bit better, though.

Still, I think part of the Christian response is due in large part to not understanding. Let's face it, most Christian teaching says homosexuality is wrong. Homosexuals are also a small minority. This is opinion so take it for what it's worth, but I don't think pastors or other church leaders do not know how to deal with the sexuality issues. They have a difficult time comprehending what is going on, so say someone that is a Christian and a church goer, but also a closeted homosexual has no where to turn if they want help in dealing what is sin. There is no empathy because the counselor can't relate. An adulterer doesn't have as much of an issue getting help because if the church leader can't relate I'll bet he knows someone who can and can help. Should it be that way? no.

Also because people have a harder time relating to homosexuality it is easier to say "Don't be Gay, you evil evil person" than it is to say "let me find a way to help you through your struggle." (Caveat, all of this coming from the Christian point of view that homosexuality is a sin.)

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 Post subject: Re: Sexuality questions.
 Post Posted: Tue May 07, 2013 3:38 pm 
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Jorodryn wrote:
Homosexuals are also a small minority.


Around five times as many as there are Jews in the US. Seven times as many as there are Chinese. And they are the most evenly distributed minority, if the least visible.

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 Post subject: Re: Sexuality questions.
 Post Posted: Tue May 07, 2013 4:11 pm 
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Everything I have seen on statistics for homosexual population is around 4% which would make the numbers about 3 times the number of Chinese and about 2.5 more than the Jewish population. Now obviously that 4% is for those that have self identified or have been extrapolated from other data. If you go strictly by people that self identify the number is about 1.7% of the population. (US data only)

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 Post subject: Re: Sexuality questions.
 Post Posted: Tue May 07, 2013 11:41 pm 
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kitoba wrote:
Steave wrote:
While this may be true it doesn't mean we can't worry about it at the same time as worrying about the supposedly more important and consequential things.


I'm not trying to belittle the topic. But it frustrates me that the church, in particular, is hung up on questions of sexuality at a time when there's so much need for moral leadership on issues of poverty, violence and the environment.

Thought you might have meant something like that but it wasn't clear.

Just as an aside, @Jor, try not to confuse gender identity with sexual identity. They are two very different things. Carry on.

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 Post subject: Re: Sexuality questions.
 Post Posted: Thu May 09, 2013 8:43 am 
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Jorodryn wrote:
So if a gay man gets married to a woman and fesses up later about his gender identity you are saying he should still honor his promise to her? got it.

Promises are like this:

1. One should make promises in good faith, ie you should intend to keep a promise.
2. If circumnstances change such that a promise can no longer be kept, you should revisit the promise.
3. If circumnstances change such that a promise can no longer be kept, you should not break the promise while still acting as if the promise is in effect.

The simple fact is, promises are rigid. Life isn't. This doesn't mean that you shouldn't make promises, but it does mean that promises may have to be discarded if life changes so much that keeping them isn't a realistic option. If this happens, it's important to remember that promises are made between people, so people involved in the promise need to be kept in the loop. More importantly, this also means that promises are nothing but an artifact of human interaction, thus they can be amended via that interaction.

In the situation above, if Anne marries Bob, but Anne realises later on in the marriage that she's actually not in love with Bob, but her workfriend Claire, then Anne and Bob need to talk. If Anne realises that she is, in fact, Andrew, then Andrew and Bob need to talk. Anne/Andrew have made promises to Bob, but these promises are not physical laws - she has options for bending and amending them. If Anne/Andrew and Bob cannot reach a reasonable decision on how to maintain the relationship while amending the promise, then obviously one of these two things will have to give.

But, more importantly, this is going to be the case regardless of the genders/sexualities of the people involved. If Bob was married to David, but then Elizabeth came into his life, and he realised that he can't live life without her, then Bob and David need to talk, and see if their promises to each other can be amended to allow Elizabeth into Bob's life. If that's not possible, then something has to give. And what ends up giving can't be made into a blanket rule - If Bob and David decided that Elizabeth couldn't be a part of their lives, but this ends up making Bob resentful of David while he stays around, in theory the promise has been kept, but no one is a winner. Better, perhaps, for Bob to leave David and stay with Elizabeth, as at least then, Bob and Elizabeth are happy, even if David isn't. If Andrew really wants to stay in the relationship with Bob, but Bob can't bring himself to love a man, then their marriage is going to be a dysfunctional one at best, and it would be better for the two to renege on their promise and part ways. But in another situation, Andrew and Bob might still love each other, even if Bob isn't willing to be sexual with the new man in his life. If that's something the two can tolerate, then staying together may be the better option.

The thing is Jorodryn, I think you're clamouring and searching for a one-size-fits-all rule that will cover all relationships in all contexts, and I have to tell you, such a thing cannot exist. Sometimes a marriage has to break, sometimes the two can work at it, sometimes the two just have to redefine the relationship to make everyone happy. No single rule can define which way it should end up, but being open and honest will at least make sure that there are less bad feelings in the end. People are people, and that means that things will change, but it also means that when things do change, we can negotiate our way around it.

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 Post subject: Re: Sexuality questions.
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:25 pm 
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Jorodryn wrote:
I don't see where the church is hung up on it. What I see is there are people that say accept what I am doing and the church response is no. The 'no' gets all of the attention. There are self proclaimed Christians making a bigger deal out of it than the churches are. I think the way certain churches respond could be quite a bit better, though.
I think kitoba's remark has more to do with the fact that organized religious influence in politics is pointed almost entirely at social issues.

Basically, you can get evangelicals mobilized to ban the gays. You seemingly can't get them mobilized to, say, fight poverty with a mass collective expression of charity.

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 Post subject: Re: Sexuality questions.
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 1:10 am 
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Why is the debate so focused on whether homosexuality is nature or nurture?

I don't believe homosexuality is a choice. But suppose it were a choice. It would still be nobody's business but their own. Nobody has any right to judge or interfere in anybody else's light so long as they aren't hurting anyone.

Also, what does it matter how big the homosexual population is? If there were only two homosexuals in the entire world, it would still be nobody's business but their own.

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