Author |
Message |
arcosh
|
Post Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:50 am |
|
|
Offline |
Joined: Sun May 26, 2002 12:00 am Posts: 2266
Location: Vienna, Austria, EU
|
The statue of the Godess is according to modern symbolism an endorsement of a certain abstract concept of justice, that the state officially endorses and that AFAIK all relevant factions endorse, in theory at least. The Roman goddess as actual goddess does not have a modern symbol at all, because not enough people need one.
Should in the future, relevant factions arise, that demand a different concept of justice and the symbolic meaning of the goddess stays the same, or if the meaning of the symbol changes and for instance becomes a symbol for justice as leftwingers want it, then continuing to use such statues becomes problematic.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
weatherwax
|
Post Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:19 pm |
|
|
Offline |
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2003 12:00 am Posts: 2825
WLM: [email protected]
Location: Wishing I was not in Kansas anymore
|
Jorodryn wrote: Then I stand by my statement that a statue of a Roman goddess is also endorsement. Does anyone worship that goddess anymore? Absolutely not. Again, the Roman goddesses of justice and libery began to be used as symbols 500 years ago -- ONLY symbols. MERELY symbols. NOT as religious icons. It was a very quick, very easy way to personify idiological concepts like justice and liberty for anyone who has ever had a classical education - which, back in the day (like, from 1300 to around 1920) was the kind of education people received when they went to elementary and secondary school. These goddesses are not endorsing the Roman pantheon or worship of that pantheon. They are merely endorsing the common, American ideals of justice and liberty. A picture of Jesus, however, does indeed endorse the holy trinity, or at least the worship of a Christian god through the belief in Jesus. Jesus's image has NO MEANING beyond the Christian religion at this point in history. To say otherwise, or to say that endorsing universal concepts like liberty and justice is no different than endorsing a particular faith, is frankly being deliberately obtuse.
|
|
|
|
|
waffle
|
Post Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:58 pm |
|
|
Offline |
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 12:00 am Posts: 5215
Location: Awaiting the Waffle Signal
|
kitoba wrote: I'm a very religious Christian. However, I've more and more come to believe that the separation of church and state is as much or more for the protection of religion than it is for anything else. That it is. I know some people would be happier if this were a Christian nation (it isn't). But that leads to the question, which flavor? Pick a denomination. Any denomination. Now OUTLAW all others. Suppose, through some odd quirk of history, this was a Christian nation, ah, oh, Quaker nation. Baptists are now outlawed. Episcopalians are outlawed. Seventh Day Enthusiasts are outlawed. Catholicism is outlawed. Lutheranism is outlawed. And that's before we even touch Judaism, Buddhism, Shinto, Wiccan or any of the other smaller belief systems. Likewise, the rules against the government endorsing one religion are there for the same reason. More to the point, they are there to protect all the various flavors, sects, private ministries, experimental offbranches and the Church of Elvis. Placing a religious icon in a government building, any icon, any building, is a violation of that separation and a weakening of the protections for your favorite denomination. Jorodryn wrote: Then I stand by my statement that a statue of a Roman goddess is also endorsement. Stand by your statement as much as you like, it is still absurd. There is no Roman religion anymore. It has been dead for seventeen hundred years. There is absolutely no denomination anywhere in the US preaching salvation through Hercules and appeasing Zeus to avoid damage done by lightning. No religion, no denomination, no sect is given an unfair public airing by this display. There is no breech of the wall of separation between Church and State because, in this case, there is no Church.
|
|
|
|
|
Jorodryn
|
Post Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:30 pm |
|
Joined: Wed May 13, 2009 2:42 am Posts: 1959
ICQ: 8854007
Yahoo Messenger: jorodryn
Location: Well since the universe expands infinitely in all directions, The center of the universe.
|
|
|
|
|
waffle
|
Post Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:07 pm |
|
|
Offline |
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 12:00 am Posts: 5215
Location: Awaiting the Waffle Signal
|
A handful of self-professed worshippers folded into the general umbrella of wiccan is in NO WAY equivalent to Christianity in this country. If you can't see that, there really is no point in continuing this discussion. As weatherwax says, you're being obtuse.
Suppose the ACLU moved to remove the statue of law on religious grounds. Do you honestly think their would be an outcry among the thousands who worship the Roman goddess of law? Really?
Now compare the uproar to those who objected to the removal of a (badly done) sculpture praising the ten commandments from an Alabama courthouse and did so on religious grounds.
It is not the same thing. And you are deliberately ignoring the point by insisting it is so.
|
|
|
|
|
Jorodryn
|
Post Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:11 pm |
|
Joined: Wed May 13, 2009 2:42 am Posts: 1959
ICQ: 8854007
Yahoo Messenger: jorodryn
Location: Well since the universe expands infinitely in all directions, The center of the universe.
|
140,000 self proclaimed neo pagans, which does not count Wiccan or those identified as Druids is not merely a handful.
Also I am being deliberately absurd because that is what it sounds like to me when 2 or 3 people make a huge fuss over a non issue and then cause a stir. So why not use the absurd to point out the absurd?
|
|
|
|
|
waffle
|
Post Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:22 pm |
|
|
Offline |
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 12:00 am Posts: 5215
Location: Awaiting the Waffle Signal
|
If it is a non-issue, then just take down the religious icon.
|
|
|
|
|
Jorodryn
|
Post Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:39 pm |
|
Joined: Wed May 13, 2009 2:42 am Posts: 1959
ICQ: 8854007
Yahoo Messenger: jorodryn
Location: Well since the universe expands infinitely in all directions, The center of the universe.
|
Here is a good site. http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.htmlNeo-Paganism has more followers than the UU and Scientology world wide and I'm sure you wouldn't what their religious icons in government buildings. So I agree take down the icons, which include representations of Roman and Greek goddesses.
Last edited by Jorodryn on Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
|
|
|
|
|
waffle
|
Post Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:41 pm |
|
|
Offline |
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 12:00 am Posts: 5215
Location: Awaiting the Waffle Signal
|
Take it down.
I should clarify.
The Supreme Court has said, repeatedly, that such displays are a violation of the separation of Church and State and unconstitutional. Present me with an argument why this unconstitutional display should get a pass. The burden of proof here is not on the ACLU or anyone else who wants religious idolatry removed from our public spaces. That is already the stated position of the federal government.
The burden of proof is on those who wish to place their religious beliefs in supremacy over others by publicly flaunting their religious affiliation and advocating their religion over all comers as to why they deserve a special exception carved out of the operating system of the United States.
|
|
|
|
|
Jorodryn
|
Post Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:57 pm |
|
Joined: Wed May 13, 2009 2:42 am Posts: 1959
ICQ: 8854007
Yahoo Messenger: jorodryn
Location: Well since the universe expands infinitely in all directions, The center of the universe.
|
I am supporting that argument by saying that has to include depictions of pagan or neo-pagan deities. No double standards.
|
|
|
|
|
Steavie
|
Post Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:17 pm |
|
Gatekeeper of Niftiness |
|
Offline |
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2007 2:54 am Posts: 5115
Location: Australia
|
Do you celebrate Christmas as a Christian holiday despite its origin of several pagan holidays?
Do people who worship Justitia utilise the Lady Justice statue in their rituals?
|
|
|
|
|
weatherwax
|
Post Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:56 am |
|
|
Offline |
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2003 12:00 am Posts: 2825
WLM: [email protected]
Location: Wishing I was not in Kansas anymore
|
I assumed once I asked the question "do people worship Justice and Liberty", the neopagans would be used to prove a point.
But I stand by my point. I see evidence of people worshiping the major members of the Greek and Roman pantheons - Hermes, Pan, Zeus, Hera, Aphrodite. I have yet to hear of neopagans adopting the entire pantheon, including Justice and Liberty - relatively minor deities that, even to the Romans by my research, were more representations of ideas than actual worshiped beings.
Give me evidence that these specific former goddesses are being worshiped, and you'll have an argument that actually points to these neoclassical symbols as deities. If you can do this, give me evidence of Jesus's image used as a symbol rather than as a sign of religious worship, and you'll then have an actual comparison between the symbolic goddesses and the religious figure. THEN we can talk about removing the statues from government buildings.
|
|
|
|
|
arcosh
|
Post Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:31 am |
|
|
Offline |
Joined: Sun May 26, 2002 12:00 am Posts: 2266
Location: Vienna, Austria, EU
|
I am not aware that anyone considers removing the cross symbol from state owned first aid kits, even though it is quite likely that this symbol has developed from a Christian symbol. Because in the minds of the owerwhelming majority it is no longer a christian symbol despite it's origns.
The same applies to Justitia IMO. And given neopagans are (according to your site) soemthing well below 1%, there is nothing that gives them more media attention, then their number would suggest, and they themself don't seem to consider Justitia particulary important, i don't expect that to change in the forseeable future.
And the official seal is no enorsement of some eagle shamans either.
|
|
|
|
|
Jorodryn
|
Post Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:35 am |
|
Joined: Wed May 13, 2009 2:42 am Posts: 1959
ICQ: 8854007
Yahoo Messenger: jorodryn
Location: Well since the universe expands infinitely in all directions, The center of the universe.
|
Actually the red cross symbol is the inverse of the Swiss flag, where the Red Cross originated.
|
|
|
|
|
drachefly
|
Post Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:46 am |
|
Member of the Fraternal Order of the Emergency Pants |
|
Offline |
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2002 12:00 am Posts: 3167
AOL: drachefly
Location: Philadelphia, PA
|
And where do you think they got the idea for THAT cross?
So yes, sufficient dilution and reassociation is adequate to take a religious symbol and make it publicly acceptable.
Icons of Jesus don't pass this test.
|
|
|
|
|
|