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 Post Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:41 pm 
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Ok so once again the ACLU is pushing to have something removed from a school. This time it is a picture of Jesus in a Ohio school district.

This got me thinking, If this is the case, why not then get rid of all religious symbology or anything that be construed as such? i.e. the Statue of Liberty, any rendition of Justice that is in any courthouse in the US. The statue of "Freedom" or whatever it is supposed to be on top of the capitol building. Ok maybe not the statue of Freedom because it is technically not an embodiment of any deity.

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 Post Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:44 pm 
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I say leave the picture there and remove the public school around it instead. #libertariancaricature

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 Post Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:37 pm 
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I like the way you think ;)

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 Post Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:57 pm 
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Um... How is Justice religious symbology?

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 Post Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:34 pm 
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I've never understood this sort of mentality. I'm not an overly religious person myself and I don't care in the slightest whatever religious symbols a government building might carry. So long as it carries out the specific function it was designed to accomodate, it shouldn't matter how it is decorated.

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 Post Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:40 pm 
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Steave wrote:
Um... How is Justice religious symbology?


Lady Justice is the Greek goddess Dike.

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 Post Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:07 pm 
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Ah. I see what you are getting at now. By drawing parallels between a picture of Jesus which holds a single symbolism and meaning and icons which hold various values but have their roots based in mythological religion* you are able to villainise those who feel that the seperation of church and state should mean that an image which solely represents a practiced religion should not be allowed.


*I use this term to identify deistic imagery which is no longer prolifically practiced.

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 Post Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:44 pm 
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Single symbolism to you. Perhaps the symbolism there was that of good teacher?

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 Post Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:30 pm 
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Jorodryn wrote:
Perhaps the symbolism there was that of good teacher?

That is a HUGE stretch. I can't think of a single person, besides maybe a few athiests, who would use Jesus as a non-religious symbol. It is very tiring to see how the right loves to demonize the ACLU and portray them as some out of control liberal organization that scours the countryside looking for fights. They don't get involved until someone asks them for help, in this case a student and two parents.

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 Post Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:14 am 
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who is demonizing? I am just saying they should push to get rid of all religious trappings.

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 Post Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:33 am 
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I think it's fairly clear that that is not what you are doing. It seems that you are doing one of two things.

1: Being rediculous.

I think we all know you better than to assume that this is the case which only leaves ...

2: citing in your initial argument popular symbols of freedom, liberty and justic as religious trappings you are attempting to provoke a sense of outrage that such fundamental symbols could be attacked in an attempt to stir sympathy or empathy for the people who want their Jesus painting in a school. You may even be suggesting that freedom, liberty and justice are difficult or impossible without religion.

This is what I believe you are doing and I'm calling you out.

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 Post Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:48 am 
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A religious symbol no matter its intent is still a religious symbol. If the item in question is an effigy of a deity, that is a religious symbol. Therefore, if having any sort of religious pictograph, statuary, monument of any sort at a government facility is promoting a religion then it should be removed. It should not matter the religion to which it belongs. No double standards.

Sure my argument seems pretty daft, so you know how I feel when someone gets upset at a mere picture on the wall. Did someone ask them to worship the picture? did someone ask them to worship the person depicted in the picture? It's just there, so simply by it being there it is the government promoting a religion? If the answer to that question is yes then the statue of libertas just being there is the government promoting a religion.

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 Post Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:59 am 
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Your argument seems daft because of the false equivalency you are making to justify your position. One is a symbol of a religion actively practiced by billions, the other is from a long dead religion now only regarded as historical symbol. The two are nowhere near the same. Hypothetically, if the picture had a history like it was the only surviving object from a previous incarnation of the school that burned down then we could agree its presence had a legitimate non-religious significance. But it doesn't. It was a gift from an (obviously religious) student group. I seriously doubt you and most who agree with you would still be defending it if it was a picture of Muhammad (if visual depictions of him were widely accepted).

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 Post Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:20 am 
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Put a Buddha there and see how everyone reacts.

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 Post Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:24 am 
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Goverment officials should not present any of their ideology, be it religious, political or otherwise, as being endorsed by the state or it's institutions, if that is not actually the case.

A certain concept of justice is endorsed and the ancient greek godess is nowerdays an accepted symbol of that concept of justice. And a change in what concept of justice the state endorsed, that would require a different symbol, is by all major factions seen as a major overhaul, what the state stands for. People who oppose that concept are a neglegible minority. So it's fine, if it's there.

But symbols of contested positions, like symbols of contemporarily practicesd religions, symbols of gay rights, greenpeace symbols and similiar should not be presented as state endorsed, because they are not endorsed by the state as such, even if they are endorsed by the current goverment or administration.

However i do think, it is fine if goverement officials make their ideology publically known*. So if there is a corner in the school, where the current headmaster can show off his ideology, and it is clearly understood, that with a change of headmaster, the symbols will change, i have no problem with a Jesus picture there.

*As long as it's clearly understood, that they will not abuse their position, to give special treats to people of the same ideology.

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