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 Post subject: Re: Citizenship Test
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:08 pm 
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Britain has a rich and surely fascinating history. But becoming a British citizen basically boils down to voluntarily becoming a subject of the British crown. All you need at that point is a primer on how to turn the lights on and off.

America, in contrast, is an ongoing social and philosophical experiment more directly defined by its immigrant population than its native-born population. You enter America more as a collaborator in the construction-of-America project than as a subject of her constantly-shifting government. Therefore you need the historical and philosophical background.

Whether native-born Americans have that same background is irrelevant. The citizenship classes are a shortcut to a perspective that the native-born American is supposed to have ingested from birth.

Re: The American Civil War: My grandmother's grandmother --someone who had a shaping influence on someone who had a shaping influence on me-- was born into slavery before that war. The Civil War and its considerable aftermath are still very much alive in modern American society. It really wasn't that long ago, and it had a profound impact comparable only to the birth of the nation itself.

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 Post subject: Re: Citizenship Test
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:17 pm 
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Also, general ignorance of history is sometimes wildly overstated. I recall 538 covering a ridiculous poll that was completely made up, purporting to show how ignorant people were.

That, and even when you present a poll to students, they'll ask 'are we graded on this?' and when the answer is 'no', they'll gleefully inform you that Snoop Dogg was the fourth president of the United States of America, and he founded Britain in the year 666, on the 69th of July.

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 Post subject: Re: Citizenship Test
 Post Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:44 am 
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kitoba wrote:
Britain has a rich and surely fascinating history. But becoming a British citizen basically boils down to voluntarily becoming a subject of the British crown. All you need at that point is a primer on how to turn the lights on and off.

America, in contrast, is an ongoing social and philosophical experiment more directly defined by its immigrant population than its native-born population. You enter America more as a collaborator in the construction-of-America project than as a subject of her constantly-shifting government. Therefore you need the historical and philosophical background.


That's ridiculous. There have been no crown subjects for decades - when you become a citizen of the United Kingdom you're becoming a citizen of a liberal democratic state, just as you are when you become a US citizen. Every country in the world is a social experiment, as can be seen by their ever-shifting constitutions and laws.

Incidentally, I am apparently knowledgeable enough to be a British citizen. There's a sample of questions taken from the study guide up here, if any of you foreign types want to find out how much studying you need to do before you apply.

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 Post subject: Re: Citizenship Test
 Post Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 7:29 am 
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You're citizens, of course. It says so on your passports, and 800 years of constitutional evolution from the signing of the Magna Carta on have reduced the powers of the Crown to "gets to nag the PM like his old granny once a week". But until newly minted citizens no longer have to swear
Wikipedia wrote:
by Almighty God that, on becoming a British citizen, I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Her Heirs and Successors according to law.
link

you're still also subjects.

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 Post subject: Re: Citizenship Test
 Post Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:29 am 
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caffeine wrote:
That's ridiculous. There have been no crown subjects for decades - when you become a citizen of the United Kingdom you're becoming a citizen of a liberal democratic state, just as you are when you become a US citizen.

Well, arguably that would be the justification for shifting the nature of the citizenship test. Although the actual content of those questions seemed a bit random.
Quote:
Every country in the world is a social experiment, as can be seen by their ever-shifting constitutions and laws.

Perhaps, but the identity of America is as a social experiment. I find it hard to believe the same is true of Britain. If it's a social experiment, it's an unintentional one.

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 Post subject: Re: Citizenship Test
 Post Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:42 am 
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Well, to be fair, Britain's history can be crudely described as a cautious series of experiments in the general direction of more representative and less autocratic government, with a side of carefully managed religious tensions, motivated mainly by looking over at the ongoing disaster that was France and saying "Bloody hell, we'll have none of that, thanks".

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 Post subject: Re: Citizenship Test
 Post Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:57 pm 
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caffeine wrote:
There have been no crown subjects for decades


This interested me, so I looked up the appropriate Wiki article

Quote:
On 1 January 1983, upon the coming into force of the British Nationality Act 1981, every Citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies became either a British Citizen, British Dependent Territories Citizen or British Overseas Citizen.

The use of the term "British subject" was discontinued for all persons who fell into these categories, or who had a national citizenship of any other part of the Commonwealth. The category of "British subjects" now includes only those people formerly known as "British subjects without citizenship", and no other. In statutes passed before 1 January 1983, however, references to "British subjects" continue to be read as if they referred to "Commonwealth citizens".

British Citizens are not British Subjects under the 1981 Act. The only circumstance where a person may be both a British Subject and British citizen simultaneously is a case where a British Subject connected with Ireland (s. 31 of the 1981 Act) acquires British citizenship by naturalisation or registration. In this case only, British Subject status is not lost upon acquiring British citizenship.

The status of British Subject cannot now be transmitted by descent, and will become extinct when all existing British Subjects are dead.

British Subjects, other than by those who obtained their status by virtue of a connection to the Republic of Ireland prior to 1949, automatically lose their British Subject status on acquiring any other nationality, including British citizenship, under section 35 of the British Nationality Act 1981.
...

Although the term "British subject" now has a very restrictive statutory definition in the United Kingdom, and it would therefore be incorrect to describe a British citizen as a British subject, the concept of a "subject" is still recognised by the law, and the terms "the Queen's subjects", "Her Majesty's subjects", etc., continue to be used in British legal discourse.[7]


I still stand by my theory that a basic grounding in history, culture and philosophy is what you would want in a "citizen", whereas you would likely focus on the practical for a "subject."

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 Post subject: Re: Citizenship Test
 Post Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:57 am 
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kitoba wrote:
I still stand by my theory that a basic grounding in history, culture and philosophy is what you would want in a "citizen", whereas you would likely focus on the practical for a "subject."


Thanks for the correction about subjects. I would have thought the primary concern for someone becoming a subject would be a matter of loyalty. Though I'm not sure how you'd test that. See if people were willing to sacrifice their firstborn to the throne, perhaps?

With regards to the idea of a social experiment, though, I would say that Britain prides itself on its constitutional experimentation. I'd say that's part of the British identity - the idea that our nation has been constantly evolving instead of the sudden changes and revolutions that mark other, less civillised countries (I know it's not true - we're talking national myths here). Britain prides itself on being the birthplace of democracy (like Greece, France, the US and probably a few other countries).

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