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 Post subject: Shooting in Arizona
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:53 pm 
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All right. I'm sure everyone state side knows about the shooting of Rep. Gabrielle Giffords by now, so that isn't news.

And I'm sure anyone paying attention has seen the uproar directed toward Sarah Palin, who happened to have a map the U.S in which Reps she wanted out of office this election cycle were targeted by gun sights. A map that included Giffords (who, coincidentally, commented on the map in an interview), that lefties have been grumbling about since it went up, and that was connected with the slogan "Don't retreat...RELOAD!"

Now so far nothing has come out regarding whether the shooter had any knowledge of the Crosshairs map and the list of people connected to it. We know that he's probably mentally ill, and it could be that the fact that he targeted his Rep. and that Rep. just happened to be on a list of people "targeted" by Palin is just one big fat coincidence. I still disapprove of such a map because it only takes a few crazies to put two and two together and cause a lot of death. Particularly since this shooting because who knows who may get a copy-cat idea? But this lone gunman may very well be just your average mentally ill shooter taking advantage of a crowd.

However! I am disgusted by Palin's response. She had the audacity to use the phrase "blood libel" to reference the way the media pounced on the possible Crosshairs Map connection. She also invoked 9/11, something about how we didn't compromise our freedoms in the wake of that tragedy. I wish she had the tact to remain silent. Or at least that her handlers had the smarts to ferret her away for a while.

Then again, when sweeping Palin's Facebook page clean after the story broke on Sunday her handlers missed an awful post saying the 9 year old victim deserved to die as she was "probably going to end up a left wing bleeding heart liberal anyway". So I have no faith in their Palin handlin' abilities.

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 Post subject: Re: Shooting in Arizona
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:57 pm 
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quick note before reading OP: I just cancelled out of making a thread about this.

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 Post subject: Re: Shooting in Arizona
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:11 pm 
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Ninja thread!

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 Post subject: Re: Shooting in Arizona
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:18 pm 
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Intrade seems to agree with you. Palin futures were down sharply immediately after the shooting, and no recovery is in the offing as of my last glance at them.

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 Post subject: Re: Shooting in Arizona
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 4:16 pm 
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While I certainly can't argue that Sarah Plain is tactless (at the best of times), I'm not sure why her use of the term "blood libel" is audacious. In fact, the only way I can see it being audacious is if you actually believe that her crosshairs graphic did in fact incite the attack and that Palin is in some way responsible for it, and the deaths that followed.

If anything, her use of the term is ironic, since there's an entirely different camp focused on Giffords' jewish ancestry and "links" the killer might or might not have had to racist organizations (and whether that was the "real" reason for the attack - to kill a jew).

Of course, all of that is a bunch of crap. It's just as equally likely that Giffords was targeted because the killer was paranoid about all the Mexicans coming over the border and one time when he tried to corner Giffords on the issue in a public...she answered him in Spanish.

Well, now that I think of it, that last possibility might turn out to be the most plausible of all; it's just the sort of thing that might make sense to an absolute nut-job whose philosophy professor once described as acting like "someone whose brains were scrambled" and whose "thoughts were unrelated to anything in our world."

And we Jews are quite capable of recognizing that the killer is crazy, not anti-semetic. And that the focus on Palin is silly at best.

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 Post subject: Re: Shooting in Arizona
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 4:57 pm 
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I think the audacity comes from applying a term naming the justification of the persecution of millions to her personal experience with the media. I'm thinking more "Get over yourself, ugh, that's way too much," than some sort of Jewish connection with Gifford.

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 Post subject: Re: Shooting in Arizona
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 5:35 pm 
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Well, just to keep a Jewish connection alive...from Wikipedia:

Quote:
In Hebrew, chutzpah is used indignantly, to describe someone who has over-stepped the boundaries of accepted behavior with no shame. But in Yiddish, chutzpah has developed ambivalent and even positive connotations. Chutzpah can be used to express admiration for non-conformist but gutsy audacity. Leo Rosten in The Joys of Yiddish defines chutzpah as "gall, brazen nerve, effrontery, incredible 'guts,' presumption plus arrogance such as no other word and no other language can do justice to." In this sense, chutzpah expresses both strong disapproval and a grudging admiration. In the same work, Rosten also defined the term as "that quality enshrined in a man who, having killed his mother and father, throws himself on the mercy of the court because he is an orphan."

I took it that you were using audacity in the Hebrew sense of the word Chutzpah - someone who has over-stepped the boundaries of accepted behavior with no shame. While Palin is as tactless as ever here, I don't think it's completely over the boundary of accepted behaviour. Unless of course you count Palin herself as being over the boundary of accepted behaviour. But of course, in that case, one more tactless and shameless comment from her would be nothing but noise.

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 Post subject: Re: Shooting in Arizona
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 6:30 pm 
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OldCrow wrote:
And that the focus on Palin is silly at best.

Yes and no. On the one hand, the killer was crazy and does not seem to be especially influenced by Palin. On the other, he didn't act in a vacuum. Between the vandalism back in March, the more recent armed rallies, and rhetoric like Palin's, there's been a lot done to intimidate mainly Democrats. Intended or not, this shooting fits into that and is a reminder why those messages were unacceptable in the first place.

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 Post subject: Re: Shooting in Arizona
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 6:46 pm 
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I have not watched or seen any of the Palin response.

My issue is that the media jumped all over the map connection almost immediately, but seemed to be super hush hush over the Nidal Hasan Islam connection. There is also nothing in the media jumping to conclusions that John Wheeler was killed because he was a former Bush aid.

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 Post subject: Re: Shooting in Arizona
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 6:48 pm 
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It wasn't a John Wheeler event. He was just there. It's not like his presence was advertised. Frankly, bringing that up just makes you look stupid. Seriously.

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 Post subject: Re: Shooting in Arizona
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:13 pm 
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LeoChopper wrote:
Yes and no. On the one hand, the killer was crazy and does not seem to be especially influenced by Palin. On the other, he didn't act in a vacuum. Between the vandalism back in March, the more recent armed rallies, and rhetoric like Palin's, there's been a lot done to intimidate mainly Democrats. Intended or not, this shooting fits into that and is a reminder why those messages were unacceptable in the first place.

So if I read this correctly, then you're saying that even though all the evidence indicates this had nothing to do with Palin (or anything political at all), some people might feel that it did despite the evidence, so we should respond as though it was?

Are feelings more important than facts now? I think not. And if the killer wasn't influenced by Palin (or anything else political) then this most certainly does not fit in with all the rest of the things you list, regardless of how intimidated anyone feels. It's just as ridiculous as saying that this fits into a pattern of violence against women meant to keep girls out of politics and in their "proper place".

Hmmm, maybe I should go check allecto's blog...she's just crazy enough to have latched onto this...

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 Post subject: Re: Shooting in Arizona
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:18 pm 
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Jorodryn wrote:

My issue is that the media jumped all over the map connection almost immediately,
Because, as Weatherwax observed, one of the victims had made the connection already. It is hardly surprising that the connection was made. People also noted the violent undertones in the language of other politicians, like Sharron Angle, or the poop who bring sighs to tea-party saying "we came unarmed, this time". Hell, even the name "tea party" is arguably a thinly-veiled threat.

Jorodryn wrote:
but seemed to be super hush hush over the Nidal Hasan Islam connection.
Um, what? I'm fairly sure heard about the connection on the day it happened.

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 Post subject: Re: Shooting in Arizona
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:36 pm 
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Guys, let's do our best to avoid mentions of armed rallies, Tea Party members carrying weapons, and related issues. It's already been expressed before that this skims us too close to a banned topic.

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 Post subject: Re: Shooting in Arizona
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:16 pm 
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OldCrow wrote:
So if I read this correctly, then you're saying that even though all the evidence indicates this had nothing to do with Palin (or anything political at all), some people might feel that it did despite the evidence, so we should respond as though it was?

No. I'm saying Palin's own words are why people were reminded of her, and much of the criticism happens to be valid, even though she isn't responsible for what happened here. When someone is shot, it's not unreasonable to think on who else had been threatening them.

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 Post subject: Re: Shooting in Arizona
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:34 pm 
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angrysunbird wrote:

Jorodryn wrote:
but seemed to be super hush hush over the Nidal Hasan Islam connection.
Um, what? I'm fairly sure heard about the connection on the day it happened.


Sure on the day it happened. But after that it was barely brought up. It turned into he was all crazy and there was no link to him being a Muslim. However, this is in reverse. People have come out and said this guy was unstable, but It's his tea party, Palin, or some other right wing connection that is being thrown around.

As far as my John Wheeler comment being stupid. I used it to bring up a point. Wheel was in the news for what, a day maybe two? I will give you that it wasn't a public shooting that also resulted in the death of 6 others, but if you ask me there should be more questions raised on this death. At least we know who shot Giffords.

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