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 Post subject: Democratization
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 11:27 am 
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The cultural standards thread got me thinking about this.

Is democracy suitable for every country?
Should the Western world pressure undemocratic countries to democratize?
Is it valid to argue that undemocratic systems are better for some countries because of their culture?

Debate.

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 Post Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 11:39 am 
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I challenge you to give me an example of how having no say, and being unable to do anyhting about it, is beneficial to anyone due to their culture.

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 Post Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 11:43 am 
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If your culture involves political disinterest and apathy, democracy may not be for you. I'd go out on a limb and say these things are bad, though. What it means is that democracy could spread everywhere, but only in the footstep of democratic ideals. Forcing democracy on people who don't want it is a useless excercise, they won't use it.

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 Post Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 11:47 am 
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That's a contradictory concept in and of itself, LeoChopper. You cannot force democracy on someone. You can impose formal institutions you believe to be democratic; but democracy is not about formal institutions - it's about popular rule. Democracy can only be established from within, by the demos.

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 Post Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 12:20 pm 
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caffeine wrote:
I challenge you to give me an example of how having no say, and being unable to do anyhting about it, is beneficial to anyone due to their culture.

Me? I'm just trying to start a debate.

But I'll toss you one to pick apart here, and I'm not taking sides either way:
*drops the steak into the shark pool*

Singapore.
Lee Kwan Yew's been going on about "Asian Values" for years.

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 Post Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 12:40 pm 
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It would seem to be logically impossible to force self-determination on people. Any kind of truly democratic government can be dismantled at the will of the people. If they really object, they can always vote to reform the government.

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 Post Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 3:07 pm 
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I would have to say democracy almost inevitably leads to disaster. The nature of democracy is such that when the masses realize the sort of deal they have, any faction of the people that constitutes a majority can get whatever it wants, robbing from everyone else if necessary. This is morally wrong. Liberty must be defended from everything that threatens it, including democratic voting. In order to protect the people there must be a codified list of things the government can and cannot do, - a constitution. It must be placed above all other laws in the country and made exceedingly difficult to change. This is starting to sound familiar...

And then of course, the constitution would need to be strictly observed. And this is where the USA starts to slip, because it's turning into a democracy.

The constitutional republic is the ultimate form of government, but it's hard to maintain and thus should not be imposed on people unless they're up to the challenge of keeping it.

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 Post subject: Re: Democratization
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 3:21 pm 
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Kea wrote:
Is democracy suitable for every country?
Should the Western world pressure undemocratic countries to democratize?
Is it valid to argue that undemocratic systems are better for some countries because of their culture?


Unfortunately, the answer is no. The prime example being the Middle East. There is only one democratic country in the ME, and it isn't Islamic. I have nothing against Muslims, but Islam and democracy don't mix well.
Why?
Look at the organization of the Muslim faith. In each country, you have your religious guy, and the all of the faithful will do as he says. It's like a prepackaged dictatorship, no assembly required. The majority sect, Sunni or Shia, get in complete control, and you know what they say, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Then you have all the pleasant things that come with Islamic dictatorships, like all the repression and sectarian violence, and when the rare intellectual figures out that, hey, this might not be such a hot form of government, its too late.
And the terrible thing is that the Islamic faith is extremely adept at brainwashing, so the common folk don't realize that their enlightened leaders have corrupted their religion.

But, I'm not saying Islamic countries can't be democratic, they just can't be as democratic as the west would like. Look at Iraq. It would be truly wonderful if it turned out as a full fledged democracy. But it won't. Why? Because they want to base their constitution primarily on Sharia law i.e on Islam. Sure, Iraq can become an extremely democratic Muslim nation, but it would be like democracy lite.

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 Post Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 3:45 pm 
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BeefotronX wrote:
In order to protect the people there must be a codified list of things the government can and cannot do, - a constitution. It must be placed above all other laws in the country and made exceedingly difficult to change.


Although in general I agree with you that a republic is superior to a pure democracy for safeguarding the public trust, Republican government can't be forced on people either. Nearly any political/social theory you want to subscribe to will still tell you that the power of the government resides in the will of the people. No matter how strong you make your constitution, it can still be altered (Amendments) by the will of the people. Otherwise it is not a valid social contract and would be some kind of bizarre constitutional dictatorship, living according to a document no one agrees with. Thus the constitution will still (rightly) be vulnerable to dissolution by a sufficiently large majority of the governed.

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 Post Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 3:47 pm 
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Quote:
Unfortunately, the answer is no. The prime example being the Middle East. There is only one democratic country in the ME, and it isn't Islamic. I have nothing against Muslims, but Islam and democracy don't mix well.


Is turkey not in the middle east then? Islam and democracy mix together perfectly well.


I've heard far too many people say that things like that because they oppose the war in Iraq.

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 Post Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 4:02 pm 
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Turkey has been viewed as a European or an Asian country.

I'm curious how many people actually think of it as a country in the Middle East.

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 Post Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 4:03 pm 
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Well, I don't consider a racially-based state particularly democratic, Daeron. How does your definition of democratic make Israel democratic and Lebanon not?

You also appear to have a deeply bizarre conception of both Islam and Middle Eastern politics. Syria is and Iraq was a Ba'athist dictatorship - not a religious state. Iran became theocratic because the secular opposition to the Shah, such as the Communist party, had been so successfully persecuted and destroyed with the aid of the 'democratic' West. Any chance you could explain what it is about Islam that makes it so adept at brainwashing, in the weird world of Daeron?

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 Post Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 4:13 pm 
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caffeine wrote:
You cannot force democracy on someone.

I used different words, but I don't think we disagree here.

BeefotronX wrote:
Liberty must be defended from everything that threatens it, including democratic voting. In order to protect the people there must be a codified list of things the government can and cannot do, - a constitution.

When people say democracy, they don't usually mean a system where majority rule takes precedence over rights, or without any constitution. I think for this line of discussion to have value, we have to agree on some definitions.

Daeron wrote:
And the terrible thing is that the Islamic faith is extremely adept at brainwashing, so the common folk don't realize that their enlightened leaders have corrupted their religion.

Theocracies can't be democratic. Fundamentalists won't support majority rule unless it happens to decide on what they want. This is not the same as saying democracies can't have religion. I don't see any difference between Islam, Christianity, or most other faiths in this regard.

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 Post Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 6:05 pm 
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I don't see how catholicism is more compatible with democracy then islam. The pope is the absolute leader, telling gods will, who does not follow his teaching goes to hell. Yet still many catholic countries became democratic eventually, without renouncing catholicism even though rightous catholics historcally don't have such a good record at being democrats.

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 Post subject: Re: Democratization
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 6:32 pm 
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Daeron wrote:
Unfortunately, the answer is no. The prime example being the Middle East. There is only one democratic country in the ME, and it isn't Islamic. I have nothing against Muslims, but Islam and democracy don't mix well.
*shrugs* You could say the same Europe about Europe, had you looked at us during the 14th century. (I realise that many Americans believe that Europe isn't democratic now but let me assure you that we are)
Daeron wrote:
And the terrible thing is that the Islamic faith is extremely adept at brainwashing, so the common folk don't realize that their enlightened leaders have corrupted their religion.
Again, I'd suggest that no religion is immune from this.

The thing is, well, is that democracy depends on a civil society, and the development of a civil society takes time. For every country that is democratic, and I mean truly democratic, the process has been just that, a process, that in some cases is still ongoing. Democracies don't spring up fully formed (no, not even the US), they evolve, and often suffer setbacks that can be measured in months, years, decades or even centuries. For example Iran, which has been moving in the direction of a democracy for the last two decades, recently had a bad set of elections where the reformers lost afetr pulling out because of ellection iregularities. But don't imagine for a second that the cause of democracy, or that of the reformers, is dead, just because of a setback.

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