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 Post subject: Re: Zuma
 Post Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 4:18 pm 
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The ANC have gone twenty-four years on their momentum so far, but the legacy of Mandela is currently being overshadowed by the revelations about Zuma. Their core supporters are aging, and every election brings in five more years worth of young voters who care more about the most recent history and less about the legacy...

On top of that, we do have competent opposition. I don't know when the ANC will lose power, but I am reasonably confident that they won't be able to manage it for another thirty-six years.

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 Post subject: Re: Zuma
 Post Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:03 am 
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Kea wrote:
Well, I hope that South Africa can escape the founding father trap sooner rather than later. In which the party of the country's founding father parlays his legacy into political power long past the time where it's deserved.


Well, Mandela understood the founding father trap more than any other person since George Washington. The courage it took for him to serve one term and step down, even knowing his successors wouldn't match up to him --it's one of the things I most admire him for.

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 Post subject: Re: Zuma
 Post Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:47 am 
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Nelson Mandela, 1964, at the trial at which he was sentenced to life imprisonment, wrote:
During my lifetime I have dedicated myself to this struggle of the African people. I have fought against white domination, and I have fought against black domination. I have cherished the ideal of a democratic and free society in which all persons live together in harmony and with equal opportunities. It is an ideal which I hope to live for and to achieve. But if needs be, it is an ideal for which I am prepared to die.


His were wise and far-seeing eyes, and though he doubtless had a lot of help at the time, he's generally given the credit for South Africa not descending into a very nasty civil war at the end of Apartheid.

Nonetheless, it's also worth bearing in mind that, at the time of his retirement, he was over eighty. I'm sure that the idea of stepping out of the public eye and spending time with his family had some appeal, at least.

(And he did, too. Right out of the public eye, no hanging over people's shoulders and running things by proxy or anything of that sort.)

We still don't have true equal opportunity for all, though the dividing lines are now mostly economic instead of legislated. But we're a good deal closer than we were in the 1960s.

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 Post subject: Re: Zuma
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:17 pm 
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Well, a few more things have come out regarding the infamous Gupta brothers. They were known to have owned a few mines; however, it seems that the media has recently discovered that these mines skimped (apparently pretty heavily) on safety equipment because said Guptas kept pulling money out of the business.

They all appear to have left the country by now (which has led to some very uncomfortable questions being asked of the National Director for Public Prosecutions, especially as they're wanted in court over a corruption case around a dairy farm). Oh, and there's an enquiry currently going on regarding their (very corrupt) involvement with Eskom (the state-owned electricity company). They've been scheduled to come before a Parliamentary Enquiry next week and answer questions on this matter - and their lawyers have apparently received notice of this - but no-one actually expects them to turn up. It seems they had their fingers in lots of pies, and now all of that is coming down on them at once... this is probably due to that massive leak of emails, allowing people to quickly figure out what they had their hands in.

On top of that, they're apparently under the legal spotlight in India, too.

Long term, corruption is not paying off for them.

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 Post subject: Re: Zuma
 Post Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:30 pm 
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CCC wrote:
Long term, corruption is not paying off for them.


I'm afraid it's far to early to say that, unless they are actually dead or in jail right now.

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 Post subject: Re: Zuma
 Post Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:12 pm 
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They're probably going to retire comfortably in a country with no extradition treaties with either South Africa or India and live until the ripe old age of 96.

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 Post subject: Re: Zuma
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:11 am 
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Better add Canada to that list. It turns out the Gupta's getaway plane was financed by a Canadian crown owned bank. When they got to running, they defaulted on the payments, and now they want their plane back.

Link.

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 Post subject: Re: Zuma
 Post Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 2:36 am 
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kitoba wrote:
CCC wrote:
Long term, corruption is not paying off for them.


I'm afraid it's far to early to say that, unless they are actually dead or in jail right now.


Yeah, you've got a very good point. Worse yet, they've already lived something like eight years in luxury, and that's enough for some people.

Last I heard, they were all outside the country and trying very hard not to be specifically located, though I believe the police forces of a handful of countries are trying to ask them questions regarding things like tax evasion.

Zuma, on the other hand, was actually in court on Friday, as a defendant. Not for long - basically, long enough to schedule his case to actually be heard in June - but nonetheless. Note, this isn't for the corruption while he was President; this is for a case of corruption involving an arms company from before he was President. And then he went out and gave a big speech to his supporters about how the accusations against him are all part of a big and vaguely defined plot against him.

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 Post subject: Re: Zuma
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:40 pm 
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Well, Zuma was in court again today... and his trial's not going to be starting anytime soon.

Long story short; as long as he was President, the State paid his legal fees. He is no longer President, and the State's money is under control of people who have no desire to throw good money after bad.

Zuma's legal team was very high-powered, and came with a price tag to match. Though he's got a lot of money from questionable sources, he hasn't really invested it well (he's got, I think, something like six wives and two dozen children), and he has a shockingly expensive lifestyle. So his legal team has now apparently been trimmed down a smidge, and there are a few pending court applications with regard to who is supposed to be paying them.

The Guptas, meanwhile, are staying out of the country and fighting (via lawyers of their own, apparently quite successfully) to keep their assets unfrozen.

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 Post subject: Re: Zuma
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 3:15 pm 
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Over the past couple of years, my response to this thread has gone from, "Oh, poor South Africa, when will they ever get it together?" to "Wow, they did it*, why can't we?"

Let's face it, prosecution is just the icing on the cake. The cake is not having disastrous leadership.


*successfully and peacefully get rid of a massively corrupt, vulgar and dangerous leader

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 Post subject: Re: Zuma
 Post Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:06 am 
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Prosecution is just icing, yes. Personally, I'd be happy with just the certainty that Zuma could never rise into a leadership position again. (Without the prosecution, he honestly could. I'd say that odds are against him ever being President again, but honestly, his odds of getting himself or one of his close allies into the Presidential seat are significantly better than, say, my odds of getting there; he has all the contacts, experience, and he really is very good at politics).

And yes, leveraging him out of the position of President was a massively positive and very necessary step. But - when it comes to clearing out a corrupt government - it's a necessary first step. But it is only a first step.

Now, an important second step - figuring out exactly how far and how deep the corruption runs and rooting it out of the rest of government - is currently underway. (One of the reasons why this is difficult is that almost all the anti-corruption tools in Ramaphosa's arsenal are ones that were bent, blunted and/or broken in Zuma's time). But recent reports have pointed out quite clearly how, when someone turns off all the anti-corruption tools, he's not the only person to take advantage and it could take some time to finish dealing with the rot.

Though getting rid of Zuma does seem to at least be preventing it from spreading further, it nonetheless remains that the longer you leave someone like that in charge, the deeper and more pervasive the issues that you have to clean up once you get rid of him again.

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