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 Post Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 10:18 am 
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StatisticMan wrote:
parannoyed wrote:
I don't know why, but I'm getting the feeling the strip is going to end in this dimension. The zappo-er is not going to work at all, they're stuck here, but don't know it yet

What makes you think that?
Remember Epilogue Two of The Heavens and the Earth?
http://archives.sluggy.com/book.php?cha ... 2019-01-10
... unfinished business ...

There are three characters left in Sluggy Prime, who have a story to be told: Kusari, Oasis and Bun-bun.

The nifty gang not returning would mean that there would be a story arc with only the three of them.


Don't mind them. They're just being Parannoyed :pun:

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 Post Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 2:04 pm 
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Biscuit wrote:
They're also BLUE anima, not red ..

Zoë wasn't looking at them, so we don't know whether their animas are blue or red. We're not seers.

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 Post Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:27 am 
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Biscuit wrote:
I think it's important that the 'zombie things' next to the Sorceress have animas. They aren't dead ... they still have 'souls', albeit drippy ones. Points more to 'controlled drooling zombie-like people' then 'reanimated corpses'.

They're also BLUE anima, not red ..


I don't think it's a given that reanimated dead would necessarily be soulless. It's a fair point for consideration though!

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 Post Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 12:08 am 
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Biscuit wrote:
I think it's important that the 'zombie things' next to the Sorceress have animas. They aren't dead ... they still have 'souls', albeit drippy ones. Points more to 'controlled drooling zombie-like people' then 'reanimated corpses'.

They're also BLUE anima, not red ..

The fact that there's soul inside their bodies doesn't mean that they're alive. In many works, there's "Undead = Damaged soul animating dead body" convention. That's the main reason why necromancy is considered evil: post-mortem soul enslavement, and not just sentimental reasons of preserving corpses. There can be even multiple damaged souls sewed together by necromancer.

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 Post Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:24 am 
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swmartian wrote:
Biscuit wrote:
They're also BLUE anima, not red ..

Zoë wasn't looking at them, so we don't know whether their animas are blue or red. We're not seers.


I wouldn't expect a zombie to deceive regarding his intentions ...

If this zombie had a red anima, it would probably show exactly the same as the blue anima.

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 Post Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:26 pm 
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StatisticMan wrote:
swmartian wrote:
Biscuit wrote:
They're also BLUE anima, not red ..

Zoë wasn't looking at them, so we don't know whether their animas are blue or red. We're not seers.


I wouldn't expect a zombie to deceive regarding his intentions ...

If this zombie had a red anima, it would probably show exactly the same as the blue anima.

It's not clear to me that they have any intentions. They're anima look distressed - tortured even. The sorceress apparently has exerted some kind of control over them. I would expect their anima to be blue for the same reason that Oasis and Kusari are innocent according to Chaz. Their actions (at least up to the point of hC's destruction) were not under their control - even if they did appear to have some semblance of self-awareness and understanding of the consequences of their actions. BUT if what the sorceress did to the zombie-like villagers is not to merely take control, but to actually change them into evil actors, wouldn't their anima be red at that point? And would we be able to see them as anything other than blue, even if they didn't care enough to deceive?

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 Post Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:32 am 
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swmartian wrote:
It's not clear to me that they have any intentions. They're anima look distressed - tortured even. The sorceress apparently has exerted some kind of control over them. I would expect their anima to be blue for the same reason that Oasis and Kusari are innocent according to Chaz. Their actions (at least up to the point of hC's destruction) were not under their control - even if they did appear to have some semblance of self-awareness and understanding of the consequences of their actions.

I think, how Chaz judges people is subject of another discussion. Can you loose your innocence if you did a certain evil action? I think then it's different than animas because the Shancrafts (and Frog) are clearly not innocent by these standards and have no red anima.

swmartian wrote:
BUT if what the sorceress did to the zombie-like villagers is not to merely take control, but to actually change them into evil actors, wouldn't their anima be red at that point? And would we be able to see them as anything other than blue, even if they didn't care enough to deceive?

We have two points of views:
Zoe's point of view
"They can deceive. They can get away with anything."
They have a certain gift, that enables them to do bad things.
Torgs's point of view
"Ever wonder why the Shancrafts don't have evil red animas?"
People have a red anima, because they want to do bad things.

In my humble opinion, Zoe's view is more consistent with what we have seen so far.
Frog intends to murder Kiki. Still his anima looks evil as well. He doesn't deceive.
He hasn't picked up the skill to deceive yet.

Therefore I wouldn't necessarily expect an evil sorceress or evil zombies to have red animas when it is perfectly fine for them to display their evilness.

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 Post Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:32 pm 
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StatisticMan wrote:
Therefore I wouldn't necessarily expect an evil sorceress or evil zombies to have red animas when it is perfectly fine for them to display their evilness.

Well, let me start again... As I said the zombie animas look distressed. We do not yet know whether the sorceress makes them do evil things on her behalf, or merely uses them as personal servants. But if she did have them do evil, the distress of their animas suggest that any such evil actions would be against their innate will. As such, I would guess that their animas would remain blue, even to Zoë. This is true whether red indicates evil intent, or merely the ability and intent to deceive. They are not innately evil, and with the distress of their animas, they are not deceiving.

The Shankrafts are an interesting case. They, too, do not appear to be innately evil. Rather they appear content to go along with the norm of the society that they are engaged in. If the society that they are engaged in is innately a good one, then they will behave appropriately. Are their animas blue because they are not innately evil, or because they have no current intent to do evil, or because they have no current intent to deceive? If they resorted to the hC mindset, would their animas become red? Or would they remain blue because they would be open about it?

Another part of the question, which has not really been answered yet, is whether red animas are the result of born-this-way pathology (say psychopaths or pathological liars)? Or does the subject have to specifically develop the skill to manipulate their anima into reflecting good feelings, when their intentions are bad? Are people born with red animas, or does the anima change with behavior? Would the Shankraft anima have been red while they were working for hC?

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 Post Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:01 am 
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Hi swmartian and thanks for your insights.
swmartian wrote:
As I said the zombie animas look distressed. We do not yet know whether the sorceress makes them Hido evil things on her behalf, or merely uses them as personal servants. But if she did have them do evil, the distress of their animas suggest that any such evil actions would be against their innate will. As such, I would guess that their animas would remain blue, even to Zoë. This is true whether red indicates evil intent, or merely the ability and intent to deceive. They are not innately evil, and with the distress of their animas, they are not deceiving.

Yes, this is true. The question, if they should have a red anima only applies, when the magic of the sorceress indeed has turned them evil.

swmartian wrote:
The Shankrafts are an interesting case. They, too, do not appear to be innately evil. Rather they appear content to go along with the norm of the society that they are engaged in. If the society that they are engaged in is innately a good one, then they will behave appropriately.

Biyu is really an questionable case. We haven't seen her doing something evil despite she belonged to NoFun and hC and comes from a village which seems to be a very strange location.
Probably even Chaz would consider her innocent.
Shancraft was clearly evil before hC. He trapped his guests with the clear intention to get them killed. He was indeed as Torg puts it "murderous" but has changed his ways (as it looks).

swmartian wrote:
Are their animas blue because they are not innately evil, or because they have no current intent to do evil, or because they have no current intent to deceive?

Or if they simply can't deceive?

Take Frog: He wants to deceive but he can't. And he has no red anima.
Also, everyone has a blue anima. The bedevils have a red anima as well.

swmartian wrote:
If they resorted to the hC mindset, would their animas become red? Or would they remain blue because they would be open about it?

Another part of the question, which has not really been answered yet, is whether red animas are the result of born-this-way pathology (say psychopaths or pathological liars)? Or does the subject have to specifically develop the skill to manipulate their anima into reflecting good feelings, when their intentions are bad? Are people born with red animas, or does the anima change with behavior? Would the Shankraft anima have been red while they were working for hC?

This is a very good question.
I think what we can assume safely that it's not possible to just decide to have a red anima. Frog wants to deceive but fails.
So either way it's a born-in ability or something you must acquire somehow (just pondering about murdering someone isn't enough then).

The next question:
Does a red anima mean the person is evil?
We have seen three bedevils so far, all of them seem to be evil (even if you can argue that the second bedevil from Scattleburg acted in self-defense). But is this sample large enough?

Does being evil mean, that this person has a red anima?
I guess we have a very thin foundation for this claim. Apart from Torgs philosphical thoughts I can't find anything to support this. And with three hC goons not being bedeviled, one of them clearly still evil, I guess we even have a counter-example.
Still this speculation remains fairly accepted in this forum.
This is the mega speculation thread so I want to challenge this speculation. :-)

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 Post Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:58 pm 
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StatisticMan wrote:
Still this speculation remains fairly accepted in this forum.
This is the mega speculation thread so I want to challenge this speculation. :-)

Cool! And I think you are right to do so. But I'm not sure that I agree with your example. Frog clearly has anger management issues, but those do not inherently make him evil. He rants, but would he actually kill Kiki if he had half a chance? If so, why hasn't he?

I can't actually recall any action of Frog's that could be considered "evil". "Immoral", yes. "Annoying", yes. "On the brink of insanity", quite possible. But evil? (And I would also add that "not evil" does not mean "innocent"). Remember how distressed he was when he thought he was responsible for Roberts' death. He is another example of go along to get along - to a point. Once he was given the ability to reason, he was immediately mentored by hC, and specifically befriended by Schlock. He wouldn't really know what good is or how to get along in an inherently "good" society. But does that make him evil?

Likewise, I'm not convinced that Frog wants to deceive. I don't think that Frog gives a rat's behind what people think of him. And that may be why his anima is blue - he could care less what his anima tells you about him.

I actually think that Biyu is a bit deceptive. She seems "innocent" enough, but I bet she'd take your head off in a second without giving it a second thought if she thought that needed to be done. I also notice that her tentacles are growing... She is not becoming a mutant as fast as we've seen previously, but the fact that her tentacles are growing suggest that she may be headed in that direction if they don't find an antidote. I notice that monsters in this dimension have no amina - at what point would Biyu lose her anima if she continues to mutate? Since the monsters of this realm and the NoFun mutants appear to be "evil", would her anima become red before she lost it?

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 Post Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:07 pm 
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Hi Swmartian, your post was more about "Is Frog evil" and "Is/becomes Biyu evil" but not so much about "Causes evilness a red anima?".

swmartian wrote:
But I'm not sure that I agree with your example. Frog clearly has anger management issues, but those do not inherently make him evil. He rants, but would he actually kill Kiki if he had half a chance? If so, why hasn't he?

Because Kiki couldn't leave her post.
Of cause I am refering to this comic:
http://archives.sluggy.com/book.php?cha ... 2019-02-06
"Let's talk this out, Kiki my dear! Say... over by the tall cliffs that stand high above the jagged rocks?"
And look at his anima. That's a scary look. He has no good intentions at this point.

swmartian wrote:
I can't actually recall any action of Frog's that could be considered "evil".

How about slaughtering dozens of digbots and doing this in a Darth Vader outfit. ... Digbots are clearly sentinent, so this clearly qualifies!

swmartian wrote:
Remember how distressed he was when he thought he was responsible for Roberts' death.

Yes, but even Schlock felt bad sometimes over his doings, but that didn't make him less evil.

swmartian wrote:
Likewise, I'm not convinced that Frog wants to deceive. I don't think that Frog gives a rat's behind what people think of him. And that may be why his anima is blue - he could care less what his anima tells you about him.

I think this comic makes his wish to deceive very clear:
http://archives.sluggy.com/book.php?cha ... 2019-04-10
"Thanks for ratting me out again, Anima!"
If he could deceive, he would certainly do so.

I guess Biyu is worth her own discussion. A very interesting character. Perharps I'm going to open a thread for her... but ...

swmartian wrote:
I notice that monsters in this dimension have no amina - at what point would Biyu lose her anima if she continues to mutate?

Monsters have no anima as well as normal animals (Torg seemed to follow the rule: If you can't see an anima, you can shoot it.) The hedgedale has no anima as well as the insects we've seen on the island. On the other hand Frog, Kiki and the poor bird from the island have(/had) an anima. And zombies have a anima - so my bet would be: If you are made by something with an anima you keep your anima. So even a noFun-monster would keep his anima.

swmartian wrote:
Since the monsters of this realm and the NoFun mutants appear to be "evil", would her anima become red before she lost it?

Even if NoFun mutants are evil (are they? all of them?), and even if evilness would cause someone to become a bedevil (for which we still have no other indication than Torg being "brainy and philosophy-like") - even then the anima would remain blue and would become red only to a seer.

Therefore I conclude regarding the theories:

Theory 1:
Being a bedevil means this person is evil.
Pro: All bedevils we've seen so far acted evil and red animas look scary.
Contra: We've only seen three of them (small sample) and one might have acted in self-defense.

Theory 2:
A person is evil means he/she is also a bedevil.
Pro: Torg guesses so.
Contra: Murderous hC-goons are seer-proven non-bedevils and the frequency of bedevils seems to be extremely low ("Two bedevils in Scattleburg in one season? Unheard of!").

So I think 1 is still possible, 2 is busted! Therefore no red anima for Biyu, even when the mutation spreads further. :)

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 Post Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:54 am 
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I think Torg's thoughts on the matter lean correct, in the sense that if we were to encounter, say, a crew of pirates, they'd mostly be blue despite being a bunch of thievin' villains. The suggestion being that bedevils don't encourage capital-E "EVIL" but rather "evil" in the sense of defecting against the status quo. Thus if you work for Hereti Corp and stay in line, you're good and blue, but if you're Marcus Chen you sure as hell have a red boy on your shoulder.

Or at least that's the impression I get.

That said, it's still an open question whether deceptive people turn their Anima red, or if their Anima turn red and then they become that way...

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 Post Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:07 am 
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Yodimus_Prime wrote:
I think Torg's thoughts on the matter lean correct, in the sense that if we were to encounter, say, a crew of pirates, they'd mostly be blue despite being a bunch of thievin' villains. The suggestion being that bedevils don't encourage capital-E "EVIL" but rather "evil" in the sense of defecting against the status quo. Thus if you work for Hereti Corp and stay in line, you're good and blue, but if you're Marcus Chen you sure as hell have a red boy on your shoulder.

Or at least that's the impression I get.

That said, it's still an open question whether deceptive people turn their Anima red, or if their Anima turn red and then they become that way...


Marcus Chen clearly was evil and deceptive. But would that have made him a bedevil if he would have been zapped in an anima-dimension? That or he would have become a social outcast because everybody would have known of his scheming.
I agree that someone in a comparible position with comparible motivations in an anima-dimension needs to be a bedevil.

But is Shancraft really a better person than Chen? I remember especially this comic:
http://archives.sluggy.com/book.php?cha ... 2009-10-29
His intention is clearly to kill most of his visitors by making them fight each other and let them run out of hair ... em ... air. And it becomes clear later that he is sacrificing a lot of his own minions as well...
Seems like capital-E evil as well for me.

For me, being a bedevil simply grants you an advantage. Evil people capitalize on this advantage. Therefore bedevils are a thread to society (where everyone trusts each other).
If you could just decide to become a bedevil and the chances of being caught are slim (seers seem to be very rare), I guess there would have been more...

So there might be an active decision involved, but I guess there is something additional involved (like a terrible price to pay or a genetic requirement).

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 Post Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 12:10 am 
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StatisticMan wrote:
For me, being a bedevil simply grants you an advantage. Evil people capitalize on this advantage. Therefore bedevils are a thread to society (where everyone trusts each other).
If you could just decide to become a bedevil and the chances of being caught are slim (seers seem to be very rare), I guess there would have been more...
This is close to what I've been thinking.

They are born this way, they or their anima is "damaged" somehow at some point, or somebody has the ability to alter other people's anima into bedevils. I do not see anybody having the ability to just decide to become one. If that was so, they wouldn't be rare.

There is nothing stopping someone from doing evil things. Being able to deceive others makes it much easier if their anima doesn't show it is all, especially if people over rely on looking a someone's anima to determine intentions.

Heck, a sociopath could probably get away with murder even without being a bedevil.

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 Post Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 5:38 am 
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Zillatain wrote:
StatisticMan wrote:
[...] I guess there would have been more...
This is close to what I've been thinking.

They are born this way, they or their anima is "damaged" somehow at some point, or somebody has the ability to alter other people's anima into bedevils. I do not see anybody having the ability to just decide to become one. If that was so, they wouldn't be rare.

There is nothing stopping someone from doing evil things. Being able to deceive others makes it much easier if their anima doesn't show it is all, especially if people over rely on looking a someone's anima to determine intentions.

Heck, a sociopath could probably get away with murder even without being a bedevil.


Yeah, that sums it up pretty well! Thank you!

And the question remains, how you become a bedevil:
Maybe it's genetic. Obviously seer is something as well, that you don't decide to become. Zoe just happens to be one.
And maybe it needs a certain magic ritual. Especially when it requires an acitve decision and something really horrible this would be a good explanation, why all bedevils are capital-E Evil folks.

But for the moment I think it's the genetic thing.

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