Forum    Search    FAQ

Board index » Sluggy Related Forums » Sluggy Related Chat




Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 
 
Author Message
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:58 am 
Offline
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2017 7:32 pm
Posts: 446
Location: under a pile of papers
Since we have begun to discuss this in reactions, I thought it worth making a thread to discuss it.

I found an old Schlock Triangle thread, but I think it's worth making a new one.

(Many thanks to those who run the Nifty-search!)

In 2008, we saw:
1)"Physical Custody of Oasis"
2) "Finding Dr. Steve's Base Lab" (Torg necessary)
3) Unclear, but "Big Defense Contracts" are needed for it, and hC was needed to get the contracts


Regarding 3) REA-1 is ready to show the military

As of April 2010:
Gennaro thought his triangle was:
1) Oasis
2) Military Contracts
3) Torg (Schlock got a hold of the "Ferret-butt" scans, presumably giving him Torg)

May 2010

Schlock says "Operation Ferret-butt" is the "Key to Dr. Steve's Lab," and Torg is being watched, and Strong removes Oasis from the triangle.

In 2011, we learn
1) (top) Oasis -- but she has been stolen
Bottom left - Baselab
Bottom right - REA-1, with proof that hC has Mark 19


Schlock could need Chen for the "Schlock Triangle"

Via DoR Riff, we learn
REA
s were a cornerstone of the triangle, and they ended the R&D wars


In 2017, we learn from Chen

On the wall is the old triangle with notes scrawled over it:
1) Oasis -Torg
2)Baselab -Torg
3)REA-1, House of Cheese R&D, hC
and
"You need to find Oasis and control her completely." Chen offers to give Schlock the rebirth facility

Now, he's lost the Baselab, the military contracts and REAs are questionable, but he is on his way to having Oasis.

Have we ever figured out Schlock's end-game?

Top 
   
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:46 am 
Offline
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:16 pm
Posts: 123
Location: IL, US
I made a summary in the reactions forums about the same time that you made this.

Top 
   
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 11:14 am 
Offline
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2017 7:32 pm
Posts: 446
Location: under a pile of papers
FullMetalArchivist wrote:
I made a summary in the reactions forums about the same time that you made this.


Nice summary--Team work! Yours is much more in-depth and includes ideas as to Schlock's motivations.

Everyone should take a look at FullMetalArchivist's summary.

I have your same questions:

From the reactions forums:
FullMetalArchivist wrote:
So it seems like there are several questions. Was the orbital DFA really the main reason for the defense contracts? Does Hereti-corp (what's left of it) still have a firm grip on NASA? How much does their loss at the Pentagon (also of their reputation and main base) cause problems for Schlock's plan? Was Sasha lying or not, and do they have other flux satellites in orbit? Why did/does Schlock need Oasis to move on the third part of the plan?


I think the loss did cause problems for his plan, but seemingly not insurmountable problems, seeing Schlock's reaction to Chen today.

FullMetalArchivist wrote:
From today's comic, it looks like the computers at the rebirth facility will be an adequate replacement for the base-lab. Chen thinks he understands what Schlock is really working on, and that Oasis is critical. He says that controlling Oasis completely is everything. Schlock doesn't really confirm or deny. But maybe he hasn't moved on the main part of part three at all. Now, if he can control Oasis, he will, as long as he has sufficient working satellites, with Chen's help. But if that is the case, then I think we're still in the dark about the main part of his plan (although there has been speculation, in the spec forums, about why Oasis may be important... but I will let that stay in the spec forums).

I'm not entirely certain about his endgame. I'm sure these questions have been discussed elsewhere, but ...I feel like what happened in the DoR (saving humanity with 4U city/removing its liberty) wasn't his goal at the start.
His actions ended up destroying most of humanity, but was that his original intent? Or was the destruction of humanity an unintended consequence?

Top 
   
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:40 pm 
Offline
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:16 pm
Posts: 123
Location: IL, US
randomlanguage wrote:
Nice summary--Team work! Yours is much more in-depth and includes ideas as to Schlock's motivations.

Everyone should take a look at FullMetalArchivist's summary.

Why thank you! Teamwork indeed. Now to spec on part 3... except... we actually don't seem to know what it is.

randomlanguage wrote:
I'm not entirely certain about his endgame. I'm sure these questions have been discussed elsewhere, but ...I feel like what happened in the DoR (saving humanity with 4U city/removing its liberty) wasn't his goal at the start.
His actions ended up destroying most of humanity, but was that his original intent? Or was the destruction of humanity an unintended consequence?


I like feel destroying most of the world isn't his intent. Some have tossed around the idea that he's after some kind of personal/universal immortality, which I could see. But in the DoR, immortality doesn't come around until 'biochip 3.0' and is nanite based, while Harbinger seems to operate on the same principles as ever, although it's not entirely clear. Or maybe some unknown thing about Oasis' nature makes him want to do... something.

Schlock felt pushed into his role as CEO of Hereti-Corp, but that doesn't explain what his triangle is all about. We know he has a personal experience of K'Z'K from the doomed timeline he came from, so maybe his goals have something to do with K'Z'K after all. Maybe he thinks Oasis can destroy K'Z'K or something.

What does seem clear is that he hasn't really done 'step 3' yet. He can't do it without physical custody of Oasis. He needs Dr. Steve's base lab - or some other Dr. Steve computer - and to intercept signals from Oasis and the computer. That was step 2. It seems like that's probably in order to control Oasis completely, which Chen thinks is so important. He needs REAs for military contracts for access to satellites so he can have flux satellites, it seems. But why? These seem like purely destructive weapons, and I don't think Schlock just wants to attack all of humanity. Maybe he wants to use them to prevent humanity from attacking him, so he can do something which they would perceive as a threat. And he needs to have Oasis, and presumably a controlled Oasis, in order to do it.

Chen also thinks her fire is very important. Maybe it has some unique Chaz-like ability? I wonder what would happen if she burned the Book of E-ville with it?

Top 
   
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:57 am 
Offline
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2005 8:10 am
Posts: 59
So.

It seems Pyrokenesis is part of the Schlock Triangle, or maybe the heart of it.

It seems, perhaps, that getting a deployable, reproducible Pyrokenesis weapon is his goal?

Bringing in some of my speculation from the WOHPAOH thread, part of the agent that ties all the Oasis-es together is they all carry a fragment of the soul (spiritual energy?) of the Sun Twin (daughter of Father Time). That may well be what makes the Pyrokenesis work.

So the Shlock triangle is: 1) a subject with a fragment of that energy (living Oasis) that they can shave off pieces of and duplicate, in order to deploy it, 2) vessels in which to deploy people with those fragments (REA-X's), and 3) command/control network to be able to control the pyrkenetic people in the REA's (Dr. Steve's Base Lab/computer banks/resurrection facility computers). This might be why the REA's always have a cockpit for a living inhabitant, despite the fact that they're clearly Robotic and can move and fight on their own. They need the cockpit for the human(-ish) pyrokinetic person inside.

Top 
   
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:24 am 
Offline
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2017 7:32 pm
Posts: 446
Location: under a pile of papers
gevmage wrote:
So.
It seems Pyrokenesis is part of the Schlock Triangle, or maybe the heart of it.
It seems, perhaps, that getting a deployable, reproducible Pyrokenesis weapon is his goal?

Your description of what pyrokenesis might be used for in the Schlock Triangle made me imagine a future world completely on fire, which is even more disturbing than the DoR.

FullMetalArchivist wrote:
Chen also thinks her fire is very important. Maybe it has some unique Chaz-like ability? I wonder what would happen if she burned the Book of E-ville with it?


Chen said today (10/30/17), that only he could provide the fire to complete the plans. That makes me think that the actual fire is important, that something about Oasis' fire is different.

FullMetalArchivist wrote:
I like feel destroying most of the world isn't his intent. [...]

Schlock felt pushed into his role as CEO of Hereti-Corp, but that doesn't explain what his triangle is all about. We know he has a personal experience of K'Z'K from the doomed timeline he came from, so maybe his goals have something to do with K'Z'K after all. Maybe he thinks Oasis can destroy K'Z'K or something.


I do feel like, from Schlock, and from his perspective, what he's doing is both personal and important. It's almost as if this world, this dimension even, has become irrelevant to the goal, that he has removed himself from it, though the goal may still benefit reality in some way, as you described above.

Meandering thoughts:
Hypothetically, if you come into a new dimension, you have perspective that those in that dimension don't have, and so can act in ways they can't. You have the choice of becoming involved, trying to improve those worlds (and simultaneously escape). Torg in DoL. Riff in DoR.
But you run the risk of losing touch with (your) reality.
Alternatively, you might deny that the world you are in is a reality OR getting too caught up in it that you lose perspective. Perhaps Schlock started out by becoming too involved and losing perspective and then swung to the opposite extreme, regarding everything in this reality as tools. So if his goal is defeating K'Z'K, he might regard this reality as tools with which to do so, leaving behind what he once felt about Torg, Riff etc.

Top 
   
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 3:59 am 
Offline
Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2011 6:43 am
Posts: 690
I feel like Schlock would definately keep K'z'k in mind, with Mr. Poopypants destroying his original dimension and all that.

On the other hand, that doesn't explain why he chose to double-cross the crew (and Riff specifically). They have been up against K'z'k several times, and would surely be on board with a plan to take him down.
...unless it was a crazy, deranged and evil plan - maybe?

The idea about the triangle being about defeating K'z'k matches up with the fact that "hC and the Cult of K'z'k are two forces that must be kept apart, their collision threatens everything".
So if Schlock could successfully defeat K'z'k in a permanent way, he breaks pillar of reality, and everyone would be even more doomed than in a "K'z'k wins" scenario.

But does anyone even realise this? Why was it he thought that Riff would prevent him from completing his triangle plan?
We used to assume it was the "become a supreme military power through use of Orbital DFA's" plan, which would make sense for Riff to oppose.

Top 
   
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 6:49 am 
User avatar
Offline
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2004 12:00 am
Posts: 767
AOL: MarcusQDunn
Location: snuggling Kittens
migB wrote:
I feel like Schlock would definately keep K'z'k in mind, with Mr. Poopypants destroying his original dimension and all that.

On the other hand, that doesn't explain why he chose to double-cross the crew (and Riff specifically). They have been up against K'z'k several times, and would surely be on board with a plan to take him down.
...unless it was a crazy, deranged and evil plan - maybe?

The idea about the triangle being about defeating K'z'k matches up with the fact that "hC and the Cult of K'z'k are two forces that must be kept apart, their collision threatens everything".
So if Schlock could successfully defeat K'z'k in a permanent way, he breaks pillar of reality, and everyone would be even more doomed than in a "K'z'k wins" scenario.

But does anyone even realise this? Why was it he thought that Riff would prevent him from completing his triangle plan?
We used to assume it was the "become a supreme military power through use of Orbital DFA's" plan, which would make sense for Riff to oppose.



I couldnt have said it better. Yes of course Schlock would want weapons to defeat a demon army. He knows it's coming

I think one of the reason why Schlock in 4U died happy is he thinks K'Z'K wont come about. In his mind, he is a hero for saving something of mankind - he saw alternative total destruction.

Top 
   
 Post Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:45 am 
Offline
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:16 pm
Posts: 123
Location: IL, US
randomlanguage wrote:
gevmage wrote:
So.
It seems Pyrokenesis is part of the Schlock Triangle, or maybe the heart of it.
It seems, perhaps, that getting a deployable, reproducible Pyrokenesis weapon is his goal?

Your description of what pyrokenesis might be used for in the Schlock Triangle made me imagine a future world completely on fire, which is even more disturbing than the DoR.

In some ways, a reproducible pyrokinesis weapon would be the most straightforward hypothesis, given that we know he needs' Oasis fire and REAs/military contracts. And satellites. Maybe pyrokinesis satellites? That would be a truly terrifying dimension. The DoF, perhaps? But I don't see what Schlock wants to do with that. He already has flux weapons, and like a billion other weapons made by Hereti-Corp.

I could see Schlock sacrificing most of the world to permanently destroy K'Z'K. I guess that might make sense. But I'm not clear on why that would be necessary.

Once Torg asked Chaz if it could have killed K'Z'K when powered up; Chaz responded by asking if removing the last page of a book would make the book go on forever. The implication would seem to be that maybe he could, and that this would somehow make the reality less 'complete' than it was.

Could K'Z'K have been destroyed permanently in 4U city? When 4U city rose, the web broke, the flux satellites ended the R&D wars, and timeless space was somehow destroyed, it seems (although much of the story is unclear). Riff seemed to think that Schlock had completed his triangle (to which he said REAs and satellites were key). K'Z'K is bound into the web in our dimension, and Harbinger seems to be a controlled Oasis in 4U-city (now that we know what Kusari looks like). Also, we saw Schlock looking at/working on a Harbinger project in the DoN. So maybe 4U city is what it looks like after a pillar of reality falls?

The idea that Schlock wants Oasis for an AI seems less likely now that he and Chen have focused on 'the fire' so much. But it still seems that the Lynx in 4U city had a personal loyalty to/was forced to obey Schlock, and Oasis was an agent of the AI. So there are still hints of a connection.

Top 
   
 Post Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:21 pm 
User avatar
Offline
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2005 1:59 pm
Posts: 1536
Location: In "Still" waters...
FullMetalArchivist wrote:
I could see Schlock sacrificing most of the world to permanently destroy K'Z'K. I guess that might make sense. But I'm not clear on why that would be necessary.

It is not necessary, but... Schlock is behaving as a classic "I don't want to be a villain, but..." villain: His initial aim was just to escape his own future and live out his own life "safe" in the past. But he always had a certain arrogance - 'I know what's best, and if you have to sacrifice for that best, than so bit it'. When he returns from the future that arrogance is now fed by paranoia. At first the paranoia is reasonable - K'Z'K is something to be very paranoid about. And rather than simply live 'safely' in the past, he does try to build up protections. But those very protections end up getting him sucked into situations that he'd mostly rather avoid - unless he thinks he can gain something (something that will help with the protection). As he gets sucked into more and more situations, he is also getting sucked down the 'rabbit hole' so to speak (no reference to Bun-Bun). For instance, he initially does not want to have anything to do with hC, but gets sucked into becoming the CEO simply to protect himself. Once he becomes CEO, he sees it as a means to an end, but in the process he becomes more and more paranoid. Partly for good reason (Chen's brief takeover and Kusari's resulting rampage, for example), and partly because paranoia feeds on itself. That paranoia, combined with the determination to devise the ultimate 'protection' against K'Z'K, forces him to remove anyone that gets in his way. As he gains more and more power, that means more and more people have to be eliminated - for their own good (or so the paranoid mind thinks). If saving the world means killing 90% of the people in it, and drugging the rest into submission, then so be it. The warped mind is like a snowball rolling downhill, and at some point early in the process it becomes impossible to talk sense into him - he knows best how to protect mankind, even if that means destroying it.

From his responses, I don't think that he initially expected to get control over Oasis' pyrokinesis, and the fact that he now has both the serendipitous scan of that power (still not sure where the scan is supposed to come into play) and control of Oasis, it is an unexpected bonus. That is why there is a current focus on it - but I don't believe that it was the original aim. I think control of the AI - which also comes with control of "Harbinger" - is the aim.

However, if Kusari's technology can truly control more than one copy at a time - than why isn't Kusari's AI technology sufficient for what Schlock wants? What else is special about Oasis - or was it really the fire all along? And if yes, so what?

We're still left with far more questions than answers at this point...

Top 
   
 Post Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:58 am 
Offline
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:16 pm
Posts: 123
Location: IL, US
So there is a physical triangle with 'far apart' points. One appears to be the new fire, and the points look like the things we saw when Oasis and the Dr. Steve computer showed up. And we know Schlock talked about scanning the fire. So the points are probably Oasis, the base lab (now far away), and the burning tree (also far away). Schlock seems to be scanning all of them, and analyzing. And he said they have to be far apart.

And now he's 'won'... he no longer thinks he needs Roberts, and so he doesn't seem interested in controlling the fire. Or maybe even Oasis. Or maybe he thinks he can reprogram the watch in the future, but unless he expects a backstab from Roberts, it seems rash to kill him now.

Anyway, we're about to find out... something. Unless we see the results of Schlock's plan, but none of the how or why. Which, knowing Pete, is probably closer to the truth.

Top 
   
 Post Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:31 am 
Offline
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2005 8:10 am
Posts: 59
Ok, I think maybe the three items that we see on the scanning screen are not, directly, the three elements of The Schlock Triangle (TST).

One of the three elements of TST has always been Oasis herself. For years HC was trying to get a living Oasis. So they have that now, in the van: an Oasis, under control of the watch, with a transponder implanted in her by Chen. That's pretty clearly one of the points on the screen.

Another element of TST has been some computer that helps control Oasis. Chen planted a transponder on the computer at the rebirth facility, so that's that one (or at least close enough).

The third element of TST has always been something having to do with military contracts or some such. What I'm thinking is the third element of the Shlock triangle is the satellite network that's allowing Sclock to observe all the things on the ground that he is in real time.

SO. The third thing that's being tracked on the screen isn't the third element of the Shlock triangle. It's what he's been after, USING the Schlock triange all this time, as a tool. Schlock is trying to capture or destroy something. It's something that has to do with Oasis' pyrokenesis.

I've speculated extensively in the WOHPAOH thread about the nature of Oasis, but in short, I think maybe Oasis was originally an attempt to make an undead soldier by implanting a bit of captured spiritual energy (technologically capturing spiritual energy is established Sluggy canon) in a person as the undead-inducing element. However, because of reasons, the bit of spiritual energy that was captured was something uniquely powerful; either a bit of the soul of the sun-twin (father-time's daughter) or a piece of K'Z'K.

With the events of the last couple of comics, and the screen that we see, is if the Schlock triange as I've described it above was a tool to somehow get that set of spiritual energy out in the open where they could track it. It would seem that they needed to get Oasis herself, and the computers, and an Oasis-induced bit of pyrokenesis in a single zone covered by the satellite network. Since Schlock appears to suddenly not consider Roberts vital, I guess having Oasis herself as the weapon isn't the endpoint goal. The goal of the Schlock triange was to get the pyrokenesis-inducing being out in the open.

To do what, I wonder? Is he going to flux it? Or try to capture it? I think capturing it would be hard; hC seems pretty diminished on the ground. If he was going to flux it from orbit, I'm a bit surprised he didn't do so immediately once it was "separated" from the other two elements. Although I guess maybe with the Kusari project, they have the tech to remotely capture such spiritual entities remotely once they are in a known position (an orbital Ghostbuster's ghost trap, as it were) so once they have it isolated, they can just zap it and bang, it's captured.

Top 
   
 Post Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:35 pm 
User avatar
Offline
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2005 1:59 pm
Posts: 1536
Location: In "Still" waters...
He also has a "scan" of Oasis - during her pyrokenesis [sic] of Riff & Zoƫ. Obtaining the scan was the goal, the pyrokinesis was a bonus he wasn't expecting, but sure was happy to get. Perhaps the reason that he no longer needs Roberts is related to the scan... Although it is not clear what he's going to do with the scan, it may mean that he can control Oasis without Roberts?

Top 
   
 Post Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:32 pm 
Offline
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:52 am
Posts: 4
Looks like what Shlock did was a triangulation. Also, looks like the thing he "won" is big - bigger than Hereticorp, R&R wars and world domination. And it is probably something that Torglodites, ort maybe particularly Riff would not approve. Otherwise he'd try to make peace with them.

My guess is that it has something to do with Dimensions and maybe even Fate. Maybe he got coordinates of this world in some trans-dimensional space? So he can do something fundamental with entire dimension, or even entire dimension-space. Such as permanently remove Poopy Pants. Or ascend to godhood himself.

Top 
   
 Post Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:32 am 
Offline
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:16 pm
Posts: 123
Location: IL, US
I agree now that the three points of the Schlock Triangle probably aren't the points of this literal triangle. I'm assuming that the locations are the rebirth facility, Oasis, and the fire. And we know that he's been after Oasis, a Dr. Steve computer (originally in his base-lab but now in the rebirth facility), and military contracts/REAs/illegal materials/satellites/something we don't really know for a while.

All three points show up on his map, so it seems them all to be far from each other and not quite in a line. So maybe Oasis is sending something to the location where the tree is. But I am thinking more the 'triangulate/scan' explanation than the 'capture' one, given that the screen says 'Schlock-systems Incendiary Analysis: Data Collection Imminent'.

Maybe Oasis is Rana or some supernatural entity bound to some artificial cage (possibly courtesy of Dunuloa), and when she burns thing the entity is partially separated from the body or something. Which creates some scannable information? That's where things get confusing for me.

With GPS systems, three signals from satellites (preferably more) give you a good sense of where you are if you can determine the distance from each one, if I recall correctly. Maybe Shlock is scanning for similar signals in the three points so he can infer how far away some connecting thing is based on timing?

Still lots of maybes.

Top 
   
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
 
Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 

Board index » Sluggy Related Forums » Sluggy Related Chat


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 1 guest

 
 

 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: