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 Post Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 5:07 pm 
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lesotheron wrote:
Goatlord42: It's late, so you'll have to excuse me for being confused. How exactly is Bun-bun trying to undercut Santa? The way I read the comic, Bun-bun used Kiki to scare Santa into dropping all of the gifts on the highway. Then people found out about it and started running off with the gifts, leaving Santa with nothing to give out.

I don't think Bun-bun is trying to outdo Santa, he's just looking to humiliate him. What are people going to think about Santa when he has no gifts? Undercutting and outdoing Santa would require either lots of money or lots of slave labor and a measure of generosity, and as far as we know, Bun-bun doesn't have any of that.

And how is Bun-bun looking out for his friends? He just knocked Santa out of the air, he didn't know that Torg would end up with a PS3 because of it.

No, I think Bun-bun is the same sociopathic smartass with a switchblade that we've all grown to love. It just so happens that this time, his plan happened to benefit two people that he knows. (and wouldn't it make him mad to know how that worked out :) )


Though some have already reflected on my original statement, I should clarify what was also a late-night post :P- When I said Bun bun's plans led him to cause certain things, I didn't mean he neccessarily INTENDED them to work out that way, just that the plans nevertheless resulted in not just one but two "Christmas Miricles." Which is certainly a great irony for Bun bun, of all people to bring about. My idea had been that, perhaps if he realizes what happened he might think of new ways to intentionally "outdo" Santa in the future, as the "Christmas Miricle" department is most definately big Red's territory.

And yes, I do consider them to be "Christmas Miricles," even though only mischief was intended. Torg referred to the gifts on the highway as such, so I'm following the reaction of the people who experienced it. And I think Torg-Zoe is pretty obvious. As others have pointed out, yes, messing up Santa's gift route could hurt some... but it also seems to have a powerful symbolism, sorta a "Power to the Masses!" Feel about it. I could totally see Bun bun causing all sorts of havoc in the future, perhaps becoming a "Robin Hood of Christmas" to deliver santa's gifts where HE wants them to go and annoy the heck out of Big Red.

And I sorta assumed Santa could make thing right with his time slowing too... Bun bun just gave him hell, and made lots of random people very happy. :P

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 Post Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 10:27 pm 
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I like the theory that Santa creates a "slow time bubble" when he uses his powers. Normally, everything nearby him goes through time at the same rate, while things at a distance are frozen. If somebody's in the same room as Santa (see every other time Bun-bun and the fat man have battled), they perceive him as travelling through time at the same rate. When Holiday Wars rolled around, Alien Santa absorbed all his followers to become strong enough to refine his time-altering powers to the point where everything else was frozen. Bun-bun, meanwhile had enough total holiday power from his war that he could do likewise with his Easter powers.

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 Post Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 11:15 pm 
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Hmm, interesting idea... different levels of time-shifting based on holidays/followers consumed. And I like that bubble idea, would definately make more sense on a large-scale operation. Seems a good possibility, though in reality we haven't really seen much of Bun bun OR Santa at work, so its hard to tell for sure.

In any case, that I personally think Santa's powers are largely fueled by cookies. :P

Also, evidently Santa's bubble didn't have enough of an effect to require Bun bun to include it in his Kiki-fire tragectory. :)

One other thought... while we have little knowledge of time bubbles, we do know at least some holiday realms (like Halloween) exist outside of normal spacetime. Not sure if the two are connected, but its relevant data.

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 Post Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 3:23 am 
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I'm still going to hold to my theory that Santa just simply doesn't utilize the time-slowing trick at all. We have not yet seen any evidence that non-alien Santa has ever required it. In fact, it's easy to imagine why. Alien Santa gradually stripped himself of help during his time as the Big Guy. Eventually, he was completely alone. Perhaps this was merely an antisocial trait of the alien DNA, but it's also evidence of what the first Santa-based Christmas would have been like.

Maybe regular santa hated the 'giving in' thing that came with slowing time, and so the build up of the Elves and the Christmas council and the reindeer, etc - they were all part of his plan for control. Maybe, Christmas isn't so powerful because people enjoy it more, but because Santa's just that good a strategist. And all so he's got such a support structure that he never has to use that stupid time-slow thing again.
Cuz it's all about control.

- I'm a santa cynic, what can I say

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 Post Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 5:36 am 
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Yodimus_Prime wrote:
Okay, I'm going to assume, Jest, that your post sounds like a rebuttal to mine because you're trying to say bun bun has always been this way but hiding it, while mine implies that bun bun has grown into this new personality.

I don't know if that's right, but that's how it sounds.

I think you're both right, actually...

Mr. Jest wrote:
I still hold that most of Bun-bun's sociopathic personality is an act designed to shield him from the pain of personal connections - and yet, like all of us, he can't help but develop them.

First, that's not so much 'hiding' it, as developing into it. So Y_P, you're right, without contradicting what Mr. Jest is saying. Second, while the Bun, like all of Pete's characters, is learning and therefore also growing, I agree with Mr. Jest that there has been a 'depth' to Bun-Bun's character all along -- and it is the very existence of that depth that is allowing him to grow. Most of Bun-bun's "principles" are sociopathically self-centered -- no doubt -- however, he does have principles and they sometimes rise up to or even above the standards that *we* set for ourselves. For instance, when the lop gave his word that he would take care of Oasis, if need be, do you doubt him? Even if it is not in his best interests when the time comes, the lop gave his word. Period. Of course, one could argue that its relatively easy for him to commit to killing someone out of principle than to, say, commit to "staying good" :kiki: out of principle. Yet I think that if he gave his word to anything, then you can count on it. I also have a sense that particular principle -- at least -- was already there when he first showed up in Torg's apartment.

So I hope I'm not overstepping by sort of answering for Mr. Jest -- but my interpretations of what you both are saying and my interpretations of Bun-bun's personality lead me to agree with both of you. But then I don't get spec points all that often...

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 Post Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 8:49 am 
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swmartian wrote:
Yodimus_Prime wrote:
Okay, I'm going to assume, Jest, that your post sounds like a rebuttal to mine because you're trying to say bun bun has always been this way but hiding it, while mine implies that bun bun has grown into this new personality.

I don't know if that's right, but that's how it sounds.

I think you're both right, actually...

Mr. Jest wrote:
I still hold that most of Bun-bun's sociopathic personality is an act designed to shield him from the pain of personal connections - and yet, like all of us, he can't help but develop them.

First, that's not so much 'hiding' it, as developing into it. So Y_P, you're right, without contradicting what Mr. Jest is saying. Second, while the Bun, like all of Pete's characters, is learning and therefore also growing, I agree with Mr. Jest that there has been a 'depth' to Bun-Bun's character all along -- and it is the very existence of that depth that is allowing him to grow. Most of Bun-bun's "principles" are sociopathically self-centered -- no doubt -- however, he does have principles and they sometimes rise up to or even above the standards that *we* set for ourselves. For instance, when the lop gave his word that he would take care of Oasis, if need be, do you doubt him? Even if it is not in his best interests when the time comes, the lop gave his word. Period. Of course, one could argue that its relatively easy for him to commit to killing someone out of principle than to, say, commit to "staying good" :kiki: out of principle. Yet I think that if he gave his word to anything, then you can count on it. I also have a sense that particular principle -- at least -- was already there when he first showed up in Torg's apartment.

So I hope I'm not overstepping by sort of answering for Mr. Jest -- but my interpretations of what you both are saying and my interpretations of Bun-bun's personality lead me to agree with both of you. But then I don't get spec points all that often...


Well said... if Bun bun is anything, he's determined. If he says he's going to do something, he DOES it, even if it requires him to carve through bears and entire holiday armies, or literally cut his way through John Jacobs fleet. And as we saw in younger Bun bun, he refused to give up, "taking 'Blackcloak' with him" by hugging that grenade. Where the maturity seems to be developing is in his ability to delay gratification or give in SOMETIMES to serve his ends (the big 1st being to slow down time, though you could argue that his allowing himself to kick his own arse repeatedly in timeless space showed this too...). And Bun bun is stubborn, to a fault, relentlessly so. On several occassions we have seen him smashed with his worst fears, and he just barrels through. As Bastphomy noted, "its not slowing him down." Not one bit.

He also possesses greater self control than most. This was seen during the "Love Potion" scene, as he reminds Gwynn that he's simply better at "holding his evil." He's relatively nice to her, accepting backrubs instead of causing wanton murder and attempted rape like the other chacters.

We know he's maddened by a lack of control... but he's beginning to get better at dealing with that. And he's finally learning from his past.

I think someone else noted this to a degree, but I think its fair to look at the pre-Holiday Wars Bun bun as more or less recovering from his massive memory loss, almost "growing up" a second time with a loose framework of his former self. People noted how he did many "rabbity" things with little control early on, like chewing through EVERYTHING. To a degree, this was echoed during the "Mr. Fuzzbit" scene, where he REALLY regressed due to amnesia and was pissed about it. If you compare early comic Bun bun to even older Timeless Space captain Bun bun, the two actually seem more distinct on maturity levels than his two Timeless Space selves.

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 Post Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 2:30 pm 
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Excellent points, Goatlord. It's interesting that you bring up both his extraordinary self-control as well as his rabitty chewing through everything. The thing with "Ka-Click" is that it gives a dramatic pause before the ensuing carnage -- but it also gives a sense that Bun-bun is sizing up the situation and planning the attack within that dramatic pause. Hence from the first Ka-Click, I always had a sense of Bun-Bun's self-control -- and his ability to direct it.

The chewing on everything fit both his bunny persona and his emotional shield, as it aptly illustrated his love of chaos and pride in being a nuisance -- both of which would have held any warm, fuzzy feelings toward him at bay. However, as often as not he would often electrocute himself in the process, which curiously also short-circuited that semblance of self-control. It suggests a certain amount of absent-mindedness occurs during the chewing process... ...which is contrary to the lop's 'never drop my guard' attitude -- even when he's otherwise relaxing. I presume that it is this behavior in particular that caused Mr. Jest to presume that Pete had no gradiose plans to use the lop as much more than a gag character at first. It's curious that Pete doesn't nonetheless use that bunny gag more often -- Bun-bun could still do a significant amount of damage without hurting himself in the process (as my ex-roomie's cat loved to demonstrate...) :kzk:

Edit: Actually after rereading the Lysinda circle chapter (thanks Lesotheron), it seems that Bun-bun's emotional ties to others (specifically Kiki) was an early trait -- even while he was still in chew the heck out of everything phase... http://www.sluggy.com/daily.php?date=980908 & http://www.sluggy.com/daily.php?date=980909

Note to Sluggy staff: I just thought of a great Xmas item for next year: The lop as a "Xmas ornament", with a small clip where his mouth would be. Designed to clip onto strands of Xmas lights. :kiki: I want!! ['though I first have to buy a kiki beanie to go with the "ferret bazooka" that my bun-bun plush now holds...]

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 Post Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 1:23 am 
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Yodimus_Prime wrote:
Okay, I'm going to assume, Jest, that your post sounds like a rebuttal to mine because you're trying to say bun bun has always been this way but hiding it, while mine implies that bun bun has grown into this new personality.

I don't know if that's right, but that's how it sounds.

If so, I'll have to direct you to bun bun's meeting with himself near the end of OU as evidence of personality change. But it has been more gradual than that. The first two years? Flat. And in the third, he shows us the true colors of old bun bun by turning on even his friends. But over the years since, because of little things, he's getting better. He'll never be Torg, oh no. I'd be surprised if he ever got to Gwynn's level of moral vagueness, frankly. But the change is there, nevertheless.


Not entirely am I rebutting you... but only slightly. And, perhaps, I'm not really rebutting you at all; maybe we're really talking past each other. I mean, it's all vague to the point of, well, pointlessness when we're dealing with the "snap-shot" method of storytelling that is a comic strip.

However, I believe "amnesiac" Bun-bun's personality is pretty much the same as today's Bun-bun; utilizing the same psychological tools to mask himself from deep and committed interpersonal contact. I think this is because of a simple and basic character "sketch" Pete made back in '97.

And yet - every character grows and changes over time, and Pete acknowledges publically that his characters are "three-dimentional" to him, and thus will also grow and change over time per Pete's perception of them (unlike, for example, "Peanuts", where the characters remained fairly consistent - not to mention the lack of physical aging - for over 4 decades). Thus, yes, Bun-bun grows and evolves.

Yet, I think he grows and evolves within the original personality framework that was established at the beginning. Honestly, that's all I was putting forth.

-MJ

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 Post Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 11:23 am 
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I was reading the Black Ops Elves Thread and I had a thought.

What if the Shadow Relm *ducks the bullets* in Waylang Kulit shaped the images so that the ones being tested would understand them a bit better. Torg was a monster in his own mind so he became one.

We know that Bun-Bun has lost all memories before Torg buying him after his first trip to OU.

What if here

http://www.sluggy.com/daily.php?date=060425

The shadow puppets were showing him a Mini Lop mother because he thinks he is a Mini-lop.

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 Post Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 10:30 am 
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Well, since Torg seemed able to summon a shadow castle to imprison himself, I don't think the shadows were "showing" Bun-Bun the image. I think it was Bun-Bun's subconscious forming the image from his memory when the shadow mentioned his mother.

On a tangent, I wonder what Torg's ability to summon that castle says about his mind? The other shadow puppet guys don't seem to have castles.

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 Post Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 5:51 pm 
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swmartian wrote:
Excellent points, Goatlord...

Edit: Actually after rereading the Lysinda circle chapter (thanks Lesotheron), it seems that Bun-bun's emotional ties to others (specifically Kiki) was an early trait -- even while he was still in chew the heck out of everything phase... http://www.sluggy.com/daily.php?date=980908 & http://www.sluggy.com/daily.php?date=980909


Why thank you. :P Nice points as well, not really sure there's much more for me to say to improve it! But your thoughts on K-click were quite interesting as they related to self control. I recall the scene where Bun bun's anst-o-meter shattered thanks to the shadow/kiki kareoke. Even though he'd gone straight out beserk at that point, he still very quickly stopped himself from hurting Kiki not once, but twice, and figured out a way to finally prevail over the Shadow. I was almost dissapointed to see him just pull back so quickly after the red-eye buildup, but it does show that Bun bun can be mad as hell AND remain fairly tactically and mentally astute.

Incidently, did that scene count as "Bun bun on PMS? Probably as close as we've ever going to see. :P"

One more thought, on early relations... he did stick up for Kiki on several occassions, notably planning to beat the heck out of Vampire-Sam when he faked snapping Kiki's neck. But then, a few years later Bun bun sent Kiki charging out into the snow during the "Kiki virus plotline..." and Sam promised to maim HIM. Odd that, Bun bun and Kiki repeatedly trying to beat each other up over Kiki. :)

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 Post Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 8:58 pm 
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Tonkarz wrote:
On a tangent, I wonder what Torg's ability to summon that castle says about his mind? The other shadow puppet guys don't seem to have castles.

You could make the case that maybe Torg is smarter than he seems. The first arc in the DOP, however, has Psyk lecturing him on how dumb he is. Adventures with vampires have also proven Torg to be weak/empty-minded.
Then again, that WAS all before TWR. Who knows how that changed him mentally? He has seemed more together of late.

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 Post Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 10:07 pm 
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I think Torg is not dumb as in low IQ I just think he is dumb as in dose not use it. Psyk say he dose not exsplore consequences indepth, and has only limited memoreis, as we see when that may just be becuse he is daydreaming most of the time. no though he gose over every thing looking for the consequences, in short he has engaged his brain.

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 Post Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 12:20 am 
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Torg seems very good at gut/instinctive/insight reactions, making him seem intuitive on the meyer-briggs personality scale, for any psych people out there. :) Intuitive thought remains notoriously hard to define, but seems to combine primal responses with flashes of insight rather than traditional logical deduction. This definately seems line with Torg's heroism and ability to act powerfully in the moment, despite his foibles and shear clutsiness to save the day.

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 Post Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 1:19 am 
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His "redemption is overrated" thing seems to me a fairly intelligent thing to understand as well. Yeah, I think he is far smarter than most of the other characters give him credit for. He just likes goofing around.

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