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 Post Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 12:00 am 
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Monday must congratulate Thom Solo (again) for guessing all six of the Pixel Pawnz correctly in the last sets. Let's see how you (or someone else) does with these three characters...

Pixel Pawnz set M8:
Spoiler: show
Image
The first one was only around for a short while, while the last two were near each other for an extremely short while.
Answers to sets M7:
Spoiler: show
M7-1: ZHOAS, Alyee (flower form), and Dr. Schlock.

M7-2: Sylvia, Dimension of Lame Kiki, and Queen Lysinda
Album of all past and current Pixel Pawnz.

----
Vote for Sluggy Freelance at Top Web Comics. Remember to vote every day.

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 Post Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 12:25 am 
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I'm not sure I understand this explanation of magic. The old one from the reference link was easier. Ah, and that was a great story in ancient Egypt.

Woo, exactly 1700 posts! Usually I never notice. Though I did notice 1000.

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 Post Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 12:49 am 
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Wow, that was a quick turn-around for Schlock. I knew that was part of the intent, but I didn't think he'd actually say it so bluntly.

So "fate ends at the edges of the world" hmmm... I'll head over the the spec forums after my thoughts have coelesced.

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 Post Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 1:49 am 
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In line 3, panel 1, I am really reminded of the word "mysterious". Obviously not the correct set of syllables for conjuring up a fireball though that would definitely change if Oasis sets that as the trigger for her thermal cannon.

This strip also makes me wonder who is telling the truth about the fate web.

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 Post Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 4:26 am 
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I REALLY want to hear Gwynn explain what she knows about magic and the fate web now. It's possible that what Schlock is explaining now is something we don't know, rather than being completely wrong, but it seems pretty clear he doesn't have an actual clue about Mokadun the gods or the bug.

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 Post Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 12:58 pm 
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This idea of a polarity between magic and science seems to be based on a fundamental misunderstanding of what science is.

Consider this: Magic is rulebound. In all fantasy stories that include magic, there are people (wizards, witches, channelers, Jedi) who can control magic to make things happen the way they want. Many protagonists have to learn how to control magic. In some stories there are even schools where the use of magic is taught (Roke, the White Tower, Hogwarts, Jedi academies). All of this is possible only if magic follows laws of some kind. Wizards must be able to know that if they speak or write the proper words, wiggle their fingers the right way, or channel the One Power into the right weave, then it will have a certain predictable effect. There would be no way to use magic if it were entirely unpredictable. There would be nothing to learn or teach, and no story to tell, if there were no laws of magic.

Science is systematic studies to find out the laws of nature. The scientific method can be applied to anything that follows any rules or patterns. Since magic is rulebound, it follows that magic can be studied scientifically. Theories can be formulated about how magic works. Each theory makes predictions, which can be tested with experiments and observations. If the results don't quite agree with the theory then the theory will be refined to explain the results. New experiments are made to test this refined theory, and so on. That way a science of magic can be built. Magicology if you will.

In some stories the characters don't understand their magic well, but they learn how to use it to do some things, like one can build a simple mechanical device with only a limited understanding of physics. In other stories there are institutions that have a rather advanced understanding of how their magic works. In Sluggy Freelance, Gwynn has mostly discovered magic on her own, and it's unclear how well she understands it, but she knows various things that she can do with it, and those things seem to work reliably. In places like Hoggelrynth, and that secret branch of the Teutonic Order that Marco belonged to, they seem to have a quite advanced magicology. They even use devices based on magic like we use technology based on physics.

So to answer Schlock's question: The difference between magic and science is the same as the difference between gravity and science: Gravity is a phenomenon that science can study. In the Sluggyverse, magic is a phenomenon that science can study.

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 Post Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 1:33 pm 
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Rombobjörn wrote:
So to answer Schlock's question: The difference between magic and science is the same as the difference between gravity and science: Gravity is a phenomenon that science can study. In the Sluggyverse, magic is a phenomenon that science can study.

I agree with your explanation of magic, however, I'd argue that Schlock's statements (accurate to Sluggyverse reality or not) might fit within your explanation. Not his example, but the idea that magic works by using the laws of probability. Learning how to use them, like the fate spiders do, hasn't yet been discussed.

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 Post Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 2:50 pm 
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Magic is also unlike science in that it is fundamentally unstable. The laws of science are not prone to rapid, unforseen change - but the rules of magic seemingly can and are altered, unstable. You can study magic scientifically, but you're building your understanding on sand, and it may shift at any time. At least that what it feels like. Magic also, traditionally, fundamentally requires certain persons to be special. It's not just understanding - a perfect understanding and a perfect implementation won't do you any good if you aren't the right person. A muggle will never successfully use magic, no matter how well they understand it. Science doesn't change based on who you are - magic does. Magic is often completely personal in a way science would never be, and while you can still use science to help understand it, it is not in and of itself made of the same sort of rules the natural world works under.

At least that's true in many magical settings, and there's large hints that it's true here in sluggy, too. Torg, for example, never actually managed to learn a spell.

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 Post Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 6:00 pm 
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Zillatain wrote:
Pixel Pawnz set M8:
Spoiler: show
Image
The first one was only around for a short while, while the last two were near each other for an extremely short while.


My guesses for M8:
Spoiler: show
Aylee in her second form, in the female human shape with large breasts. The second on I have to think about. The last one is Dr. Chen on fire with the control watch.

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 Post Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 6:55 pm 
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randomlanguage wrote:
I agree with your explanation of magic, however, I'd argue that Schlock's statements (accurate to Sluggyverse reality or not) might fit within your explanation. Not his example, but the idea that magic works by using the laws of probability. Learning how to use them, like the fate spiders do, hasn't yet been discussed.

I'm OK with the concept of magic that works by manipulating probability. Schlock doesn't explain it well, but the idea could be made to work. But when he says "science rules, and magic is dead", then it's apparent that he thinks science is somehow in opposition to magic. That's what I disagree with.

GlyphGryph wrote:
Magic is also unlike science in that it is fundamentally unstable. The laws of science are not prone to rapid, unforseen change - but the rules of magic seemingly can and are altered, unstable. You can study magic scientifically, but you're building your understanding on sand, and it may shift at any time. At least that what it feels like.

If it feels like that within a specific fantasy world, then that's bad writing. The author hasn't thought their magic system through and nailed down the rules. In a well written work the rules don't change for no reason. But of course a magical theory may sometimes need to be adjusted, just like new discoveries sometimes lead to a physical theory being adjusted. That doesn't mean that the laws of nature have changed, just that our understanding of nature has improved.

GlyphGryph wrote:
Magic also, traditionally, fundamentally requires certain persons to be special. It's not just understanding - a perfect understanding and a perfect implementation won't do you any good if you aren't the right person. A muggle will never successfully use magic, no matter how well they understand it.

Some people are special in that they can digest lactose their whole lives. Most people in the world lose that ability when they are weaned. That's not because chemistry works differently for special people, it's just a genetic difference. People who are born blind will never see, no matter how well they understand light.

GlyphGryph wrote:
Torg, for example, never actually managed to learn a spell.

Not at Hoggelrynth, but he has used the Book of E-ville a few times. The book can apparently give magic powers to muggles.

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 Post Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 7:36 pm 
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I think Pete has been setting this conception of magic up for a while. Cappy-Bo both created a 'no magic bubble' and a 'bad luck zone'.

I'm not sure that any one character is supposed to be the definitive authority on magic. But I think Kron and Schlock's distinctions make sense and can be reconciled together. There may not be an absolute distinction between magic and science, but it can still be a useful dichotomy. Rombobjörn's post reminds me of a scene from Roger Zelazny's Lord of Light where a character in effect implies that the difference between science and magic is philosophical, the difference between believing that everything is bound by comprehensible laws or that some things are beyond explanation. Sometimes I prefer magical systems in books to be a little unpredictable, within reason...

One major difference in practice is that often magic involves specific words being used, raising the question of who/what it is that hears the words and enforces the spell. But there is no comparable question with Schlock's flamethrower example, unless if you count why the fundamental particles of the universe have the properties they do.

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 Post Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 7:42 pm 
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kromiller wrote:
Zillatain wrote:
Pixel Pawnz set M8:
Spoiler: show
Image
The first one was only around for a short while, while the last two were near each other for an extremely short while.

My guesses for M8:
Spoiler: show
Aylee in her second form, in the female human shape with large breasts. The second on I have to think about. The last one is Dr. Chen on fire with the control watch.

Spoiler: show
Agreed on both 1 and 3, so the line up is : Aylee in Phase 2, Torg wearing Oasis' clothes from the rebirth facility, and Burning-Head Chen.


Regarding the discusson of magic vs. science... can I request that it be taken to SRC? Discussion of how things work in the Sluggyverse may lead to unwanted spec, and I'd have to see Zillatain making [SPEC] edits all over the place. :torg: It is somewhat fascinating, though.

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 Post Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 11:59 pm 
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Thom Solo wrote:
Regarding the discusson of magic vs. science... can I request that it be taken to SRC? Discussion of how things work in the Sluggyverse may lead to unwanted spec, and I'd hate to see Zillatain making [SPEC] edits all over the place. :torg: It is somewhat fascinating, though.
I have to agree that it is interesting. Though I don't really see it degrading into spec --that I'm concerned about-- territory.

Pixel Pawnz:
Spoiler: show
You two are correct. It is indeed Aylee "Monkeys" Alien, Torg "Tight-Crotch" Lastnamelessone, and Marcus "Hot-Pizza" Chen.

That reminds me. I haven't made any Hoggelrynth Pawnz. Can't think of any that are unique enough to recognize in Pixel Pawnz form. Should probably give the chapters a once over just to be sure.

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 Post Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 1:29 am 
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Reading again, I understand Dr. Schlock's explanation of magic now. It is this: Everything CAN happen, but some things are extremely unlikely. But as long as they CAN happen, "magic" means taking that tiny probability and working with it - increasing it immensely.

At Rombo Bear: What Schlock means when he says science is "things that follow the laws of nature". Since there is no one-word definition of it, he says "science", the word for studying the things that follow the laws of nature.

Your definition of magic isn't always correct. In some settings magic follows rules but other times it doesn't. There can also be different kinds of magic in the same story, where the more "chaotic magic" doesn't follow rules.

For example, in old D&D paperbacks there was chaos magic and law magic. And in the Harry Dresden novels there are chaos creatures from the great void, whose magic cannot be understood, if I remember correctly. People who play around with Wiccan stuff don't acknowledge any rules for their magic other than what they invent themselves, so there are no rules from one person to another. And no results either, of course.

In the tedious David Eddings fantasy novels there are shamans far north, who have chaotic magic.

In the glorious creation that is the collection of World of Darkness roleplaying games, we find the beautiful Magic: The Ascension game, with different kinds of magic - and the horrible Marauders wield magic anathema to all understanding.

But as for the kind of magic that does follow patterns, it is true, it can be studied scientifically like everything else. "Science" simply being the method of methodical observation and experimentation.

And even though no one asked for it, the general definition of magic, whether law-bound or chaotic or spiritual or hermetic or whatnot, is this: Things you can do that don't follow the laws of nature. (And just to pester everyone, the definition of gods is: beings who exist outside the laws of nature but who wield considerable power to affect our world. Making them magical, in fact.)

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 Post Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 2:33 am 
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(Also Silverwalker, don't forget the ultimate example of magic that doesn't have any clear rules: Lord of the Rings. LotR magic is just miracles performed by gods and the vessels of gods, limited purely by the quirks of their personalities and imaginations, but nothing more)

I find it very impressive that Schlock has managed to craft his own conception of magic that fits logically within his worldview. It might be similar to or even derived from Dr. Steve's conception as well. But on this subject, I'm afraid I'm going to have to trust the person who literally learned about magic from gods at the dawn of human existence. Something just tells me her insights are slightly more accurate.

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